Seeking clarification of our Understanding of Daniel 11:33

[Jay Ross]

Hello

When reading Daniel 11:33 recently I was prompted to look at the interlinear bible and realised that “for some days” in the RSV is rendered only as “days” and wondered if the protocol used elsewhere for plural words also found in the Book of Daniel should be applied also here for the word “days” such that it is translated as “two days {of the Lord}?”

I have added the words {of the Lord} to give clarity as to the length of the period that they will fall by the sword and by flame and will be plundered and put into captivity. These evils will continue for around 2,000 years for the descendants of Israel.

The Interlinear bible gives: –
Daniel 11:33: – W^m=c!òKy@ly *Íu< `y!æbynW ³l~r!¢By< +w]n=k=vÔlW =B#ój\rb W=b#l*h*ºbh !B=v!ˆby W=b!b`æZh `y!µmy<.

<And they that understand among> <the people> <shall instruct> <many:> <yet they shall fall> <by the sword,> <and by flame,> <by captivity,> <and by spoil,> <days.>

7919 5971 995 7227 3782 2719 3852 7628 961 3117

<Uwmaskiyleey> <‘aam> <yaabiynuw> <laarabiym> <W­niksh­luw> <b­chereb> <uwblehaabaah> <bishbiy> <uwbbizaah> <yaamiym>

This verse is translated in the RSV as: - And those among the people who are wise shall make many understand, though they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder, for some days.

In the ASV it is rendered as : - And they that are wise among the people shall instruct many; yet they shall fall by the sword and by flame, by captivity and by spoil, (many) days.

Where the word “many” is in brackets to indicate that it should not be there.

After considering this verse, I wonder if it would be better rendered as the following so that its meaning is clear and precise?

And those among the people who are wise shall make many understand, though they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder for a period of two days {of the Lord.}

Input to clarify this matter is requested from those who are wiser than I so that I do not do a Badly.


Shalom

Jay Ross

[4givenmuch]

uh . . .I don't have a clue- Sorry!

[Jay Ross]

:mrgreen: uh . . .I don't have a clue- Sorry!

Is this true for others as well on this site?

If this is so, then why are you posting your knowledge as if it is true when you have no understanding of this simple verse?

[4givenmuch]

:mrgreen: uh . . .I don't have a clue- Sorry!

Is this true for others as well on this site?

If this is so, then why are you posting your knowledge as if it is true when you have no understanding of this simple verse?

I posted because I thought your idea was interesting and by posting I would give it a bump for others wiser than I to give it a notice.

[Jay Ross]

Thanks for that encouragement 4givenmuch.

[Douggg]

Hello

When reading Daniel 11:33 recently I was prompted to look at the interlinear bible and realised that “for some days” in the RSV is rendered only as “days” and wondered if the protocol used elsewhere for plural words also found in the Book of Daniel should be applied also here for the word “days” such that it is translated as “two days {of the Lord}?”

I have added the words {of the Lord} to give clarity as to the length of the period that they will fall by the sword and by flame and will be plundered and put into captivity. These evils will continue for around 2,000 years for the descendants of Israel.

The Interlinear bible gives: –
Daniel 11:33: – W^m=c!òKy@ly *Íu< `y!æbynW ³l~r!¢By< +w]n=k=vÔlW =B#ój\rb W=b#l*h*ºbh !B=v!ˆby W=b!b`æZh `y!µmy<.

<And they that understand among> <the people> <shall instruct> <many:> <yet they shall fall> <by the sword,> <and by flame,> <by captivity,> <and by spoil,> <days.>

7919 5971 995 7227 3782 2719 3852 7628 961 3117

<Uwmaskiyleey> <‘aam> <yaabiynuw> <laarabiym> <W­niksh­luw> <b­chereb> <uwblehaabaah> <bishbiy> <uwbbizaah> <yaamiym>

This verse is translated in the RSV as: - And those among the people who are wise shall make many understand, though they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder, for some days.

In the ASV it is rendered as : - And they that are wise among the people shall instruct many; yet they shall fall by the sword and by flame, by captivity and by spoil, (many) days.

Where the word “many” is in brackets to indicate that it should not be there.

After considering this verse, I wonder if it would be better rendered as the following so that its meaning is clear and precise?

And those among the people who are wise shall make many understand, though they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder for a period of two days {of the Lord.}

Input to clarify this matter is requested from those who are wiser than I so that I do not do a Badly.


Shalom

Jay Ross

Hi jay,

33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many (that's the disciples):
yet they (the Jews) shall fall by the sword, and by flame, (the battle and destruction of the temple) by captivity, and by spoil (the robbing of the temple gold), many days (they would spend a long time in the diaspora).

34Now when they shall fall,(defeated by the Romans) they shall be holpen with a little help (the Jews had hope thinking that Simon Bar-Kochba is their king messiah because he is successful a little against the Romans): but many shall cleave to them with flatteries (not sure about that one, but rabbi Akiva, kabbalist, was the one who declared that Bar Kochba was king messiah).

35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. (that verse is talking about the first century Christians and Christians down through the ages until the time appointed. The appointed time is both for the resurrection of their bodies and crowns given for their faith. It is talking about the end times. That's why the next verse is about the Antichrist.)

36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Jay, there is one thing that I cannot overemphasize, that almost no-one takes into account when reading the old testament.

And that is God's plan of salvation through the death and resurrection of the messiah - was kept a secret until after the resurrection. Thus, in the old testament, critical information is intentionally left out. So as not to give away God's plan to Satan.

That's why passages like in Daniel 11 are hard to understand.

1Corinthians2: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Jay, as far as the language issues, I would suggest going to Ask Moses and see what the Jews have to say as one option.

Doug L.

[Jay Ross]

Doug l.

Thanks for the input of your interesting interpretation of Daniel 11:33-36, however, you did not address the question as to whether or not the word "yaamiym" which is plural for days should be translated as "two days" to be consistent with other instances where this occurs in Daniel like, "time, times and a half," which is understood to mean "one time plus two times plus half a time" and is often translated as "three and a half times."

If this is so then it is my view that Daniel clearly prophesied that Israel would suffer for a period of around two thousand years of tribulation, desolation and devastation before the decreed end of their punishment for their idolatrious behaviour as told to us in Exodus 20:4-6.

Now, on reflection of your understanding of Daniel 7:33-36, it would seem that your view does not reflect what this passage is actually saying and that Daniel 9:24-26 clearly indicates the purposes of Christs visitation to the earth , 2,000 years ago. In other words, Christ's intended purpose was not hidden in that it states in this passage that there would be an atonement for sin established that would do away with the continual yearly sin sacrifice.

Now your input as to how "yaamiym" should be translated would be welcomed.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[mark s]

:mrgreen: uh . . .I don't have a clue- Sorry!

Is this true for others as well on this site?

If this is so, then why are you posting your knowledge as if it is true when you have no understanding of this simple verse?

HI Jay,

Do you ridicule others (in a blanket statement, nonetheless) for lacking knowledge of a minute aspect of Hebrew translation?

One replied to you in their humility, and to help you, and you take this as opportunity to ridicule, not only them, but everyone else here?

That is not acceptable.

----------------------------------------------------------

As to your point, that we should use the way a different word is translated in a different context, as if this gives us some supposed "rule" to translate this word in this place in such a manner as to validate your particular theory of the end times, I would call your attention to Job 42:17. This is the same word, same form, same indefinite use.

You would have us to think that Job only lived two days? I think not.

And Job 15:10. And Job 32:7. Psalm 34:12. Psalm 61:6. Just a few examples of how this word is used to mean "indefinite days".

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Jay Ross]

Mark s

You have raised a number of different way is which OT 3117 has been used. The PC Study Bible program that I use suggest that OT3177 is used 2304 times in the Old Testament and that it is understood to have many meanings.

Ps 61:6 is a difficult verse to translate as OT 3177 appears twice in the verse. I am not sure as to the intended meaning of this verse as there is also a technical translation contained within the verse which I had also looked at without reference to OT 3117. Your highlighting of Ps 61:6 means that I should go back and reconsider my understanding of this verse. For that I thank you.

The question is, "Should Daniel 11:33 beconsidered within God's timeframe or man's as we consider the literal meaning of this scripture within the context of this verse?"

Others, and not from this site, have pointed out other occurances of this word where OT 3117 should be considered within God's timeframe to make sense of what has been written.

We are fortunate that we can look back over 6,000 years of man's history and consider the scriptures from this present time and consider whether or not there is a different meaning to the previous scholarly understandings which makes more sense with respect to our present time and hindsight.

I am not sure that we have found all the keys to help us understand Biblical prophecy but we should be prepared to move away from errors as they are exposed.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Douggg]

Doug l.

Thanks for the input of your interesting interpretation of Daniel 11:33-36, however, you did not address the question as to whether or not the word "yaamiym" which is plural for days should be translated as "two days" to be consistent with other instances where this occurs in Daniel like, "time, times and a half," which is understood to mean "one time plus two times plus half a time" and is often translated as "three and a half times."

If this is so then it is my view that Daniel clearly prophesied that Israel would suffer for a period of around two thousand years of tribulation, desolation and devastation before the decreed end of their punishment for their idolatrious behaviour as told to us in Exodus 20:4-6.

Now, on reflection of your understanding of Daniel 7:33-36, it would seem that your view does not reflect what this passage is actually saying and that Daniel 9:24-26 clearly indicates the purposes of Christs visitation to the earth , 2,000 years ago. In other words, Christ's intended purpose was not hidden in that it states in this passage that there would be an atonement for sin established that would do away with the continual yearly sin sacrifice.

Now your input as to how "yaamiym" should be translated would be welcomed.

Shalom

Jay Ross

Hi Jay, well the word could mean two thousand years, or two periods of time. Why not as a option, just to get an unbiased opinion go to AskMoses.com and see what the rabbi's have to say. It doesn't mean that their answer is absolutely correct. It just give another opinion, which you can consider. And so what if it does mean 2000 years, we know that the Jews have been in diaspora for roughly that amount of time. And that they would be in captivity many days or two days - looking back we know that it was roughly 2000 years.

Now, on reflection of your understanding of Daniel 7:33-36, it would seem that your view does not reflect what this passage is actually saying and that Daniel 9:24-26 clearly indicates the purposes of Christs visitation to the earth , 2,000 years ago. In other words, Christ's intended purpose was not hidden in that it states in this passage that there would be an atonement for sin established that would do away with the continual yearly sin sacrifice.

I am not wrong on this one, brother Jay. Not even close. The words in Daniel 9:24-26 are not hidden. But the understanding of what those words meant - was. We only know what the scriptures mean in referral to Jesus because after the resurrection Jesus Himself opened the disciples understanding of the scriptures that talked about him as save us from our sins messiah .

Even when Jesus first appeared to them after the resurrection, they were excited, but they didn't know what it meant. They didn't understand the gospel until Jesus actually opened their understanding.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. (Jay, the Jews call those put together by an acronym called their "Tanach" )

45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

With an understanding of what the scriptures meant, and the gospel message, the disciples went out and preached to the world. And that is why we know what we know about the old testament prophecies regarding Jesus because it has been preached generation to generation.

Before then, the Jews, the disciples, Satan, the fallen angels, the demons, only knew of the promised special anointed king as being "King Messiah" not "save us from our sins" messiah. Anointed, btw, can refer to a king or priest.

If a person doesn't get that right...to know the difference between "King Messiah" and "Save us from our Sins Messiah" it is impossible to understand bible prophecy.

The Jews rejected Jesus as "King Messiah". Jesus said to Nicodemus that they would reject him - not as "Save us from our sins Messiah" because that was hidden from anyone's understanding until after the resurrection. They rejected Jesus as "King Messiah". The Romans had a plaque put over Jesus's head on the cross "King of the Jews" mocking the Jews hopes of a "King Messiah"

Jesus came as "King Messiah" in his Father name, that is, he and the Father are one, Jesus is God. That was the blasphemy to the Jewish religious leaders. They rejected Jesus. But Jesus said to Nicodemus another (King Messiah) coming in his own name they would receive. Jesus was talking about the Antichrist man who the Jews will in grave error embrace as their "King Messiah", who will later declare that he himself is God - i.e.coming in his own name.

The disciples the day of the crucifixion and afterward were despondent because they thought all was lost. They understood the special promised anointed king to be "King Messiah". At that point, Jesus to them was a failed "King Messiah".

The Jews of today will readily point that out. Because they don't believe that Jesus rose again and appeared to the disciples. Satan and the fallen angels and the demons all thought they had thwarted God's plan of bringing the Kingdom of God to this earth... because they successfully partaked in killing God's "King Messiah". Satan and the other princes of this world had no idea that by doing so they just lost their stranglehold on humanity because it broke the power of sin to eternal separate man from God. When Jesus rose from the dead, that put captivity into captive.

During the three days his body was in the grave, Jesus went into hell and preached the gospel to them which were dead. Those who received it, did so by faith, because they had to believe that Jesus would resurrect himself. The thief on the cross was right there in hell (the side of the righteous, paradise, hearing the gospel himself). The gospel is more than Jesus dying on the cross, but also the resurrection. When Jesus appeared to Mary, he told her not to touch him because he had yet to ascend to the Father. So them who received the gospel while in hell, did not ascend out hell to heaven ahead of Jesus. Therefore, we know it was by faith that they were saved.

Everything we know regarding the old testament and "Save us from our sins messiah" did not begin until after the Resurrection. Save us from our sins messiah is embedded in the scriptures hidden from understanding. Satan didn't have a
clue. The prophecies in the ot, regarding save us from our sins messiah and his second coming are intentionally made non-understandable until after the resurrection. And some are non-understandable until the end times. And even in Revelation, some of the information is with-held - what the seven thunders said John was told not to write down.

Jesus said that the Jews should have been aware of the time of his visitation - which I think you are referring to - was in respect of him being "King Messiah", not save us from our sins Messiah - which was God's secret plan.

The Antichrist man is going to be a False King Messiah. He is not going to impersonate Jesus. He is going to appear to the Jews as King Messiah as they under the special anointed king that God promised them who would bring about peace, and fight the battles of God in defending Israel.

The covenant he confirms will be the Mt. Sinai covenant, as Moses ordered the second generation to go in and possess the land in Deuteronomy 31. Then in Deuteronomy 31:10-11 Moses directs future generations to read his order, law, every 7 years, to the congregation of Israel. That reading is what the Antichrist man will oversee be done on the temple mount.

Jay, I am just trying to make people here aware of why certain aspects of the old testament prophecies are so hard to understand. You may be right about the many days being two days that refer to the length of time of the captivity. We do know that it was 2000 years rounded off. So "many days" is legitimate as well, even if it turns out that two days is actually correct. Best success in talking to the rabbi's

Doug L.

[mark s]

The question is, "Should Daniel 11:33 beconsidered within God's timeframe or man's as we consider the literal meaning of this scripture within the context of this verse?"

Hi Jay,

This goes towards your addition of "of the Lord", as a modifier for "days", that is to make the passage say, "two days of the Lord". I see no foundation for this addition. This is simply speaking in normal terms. We should understand the passage as having a plain meaning, imo.

Others, and not from this site, have pointed out other occurances of this word where OT 3117 should be considered within God's timeframe to make sense of what has been written.

Your suggestion involves treating it as a "technical term", with this particular meaning. My pointing to these passages, showing not only the same word, but the same form within similar contexts, demonstrates that it does not have such a meaning as you suggest, and that if we are to see it consistent with it's general usage, it refers to an indefinite duration, in a fairly simple sense.

From my perusal, most of the occurrences of this word occur in conjunction with modifiers. My examples do not.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Jay Ross]

In considering Genesis 1:5, what is the duration of OT 3117 <yowm>, is it used in reference to God's timeframe or man's timeframe given that it was not until the fourth "day" that the sun and the moon and the stars were created and put in place that OT 3117 <uwlyaamiym> days within man's time frame were created. Then in Genesis 1:19 we are told that all of this was done during OT 3117 <yowm> day within God's timeframe.

Now in Daniel 11:33 OT 3117 <yaamiym> has a different form again and is considered to be days which is often translated as "many days."

What I am suggesting is that from our vantage point in the history of man, knowing that around 2,000 years of tribulation has be poured out over the nation and land of Israel and that its decreed end is still, in my view, around 30 or more years into the future and is not iminent as others are suggesting with their "theories" and "wisdom," that perhaps Daniel was indicating the duration of their desolation and devastation and tribulation that they would be suffering for their sin of idolatry.

Given that we are told in scripture that a day is as a 1,000 years unto the lord, then to suggest that the reference to days in Daniel 11:33 should be considered as "two days of the Lord" is within the realams of acceptable understanding and is in agreement with the Prophecy found in Ex 20:4-6 where it refers to two protracted periods of time which is not associated with a "descenant generation" which people have used as their "technical understanding" because they have no other "better understanding" and they have locked in their "technical understanding" as the only understanding that should be accepted.

Now Daniel had already prophesied that the saint would be oppressed by the Beasts and Satan for a futher three and a half ages before Satan and the beasts would be finally dealt with and perish in the Lake of Fire. He also had prophesied that there would be another 490 years of forgiveness allowed for the nation of Israel, which jesus confirmed, before their iniquity of idolatry would be visited apon to them for the decreed time.

Now if we accept that <yaamiym> in Dan 11:33 should be understood in its literal sense then we have no understanding of when the decreed end of Israel's present tribulation is and we are making suggestion/theories that have no foundation at all. If on the other hand we we understand that <yaamiym> is referring to "two days of the Lord" then we have a much better understanding of when the decreed end of their tribulation will be.

Jesus in Luke 13 tells the parable that if the fig tree is found to not be bearing any fruit at the begining of the fifth season/ages of the fig tree's existance that he would not resist or hinder the destruction of that fig tree in any way.

Now is there any wisdom in the suggestion that I am making?

Shalom

Jay Ross

[mark s]

In considering Genesis 1:5, what is the duration of OT 3117 <yowm>, is it used in reference to God's timeframe or man's timeframe given that it was not until the fourth "day" that the sun and the moon and the stars were created and put in place that OT 3117 <uwlyaamiym> days within man's time frame were created. Then in Genesis 1:19 we are told that all of this was done during OT 3117 <yowm> day within God's timeframe.p

Here you are presupposing that "man's timeframe" and "God's timeframe" are two different things. Why should we not read the text in the simplest, most natural way, and think of a "day" as we always do?

Though there was not a sun and moon, that does not mean that there was not the same duration that they were created to mark. In fact, We are told there was:

And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

Now in Daniel 11:33 OT 3117 <yaamiym> has a different form again and is considered to be days which is often translated as "many days."

Yes, it is the indefinite form, at least, that is what appears to be to me as I've now looked at a number of places this is used.

What I am suggesting is that from our vantage point in the history of man, knowing that around 2,000 years of tribulation has be poured out over the nation and land of Israel and that its decreed end is still, in my view, around 30 or more years into the future and is not iminent as others are suggesting with their "theories" and "wisdom," that perhaps Daniel was indicating the duration of their desolation and devastation and tribulation that they would be suffering for their sin of idolatry.

This sounds to me to be what I suggested earlier - that you are trying to interpret this passage to conform to your end times "theory".

But again, I go back to the word study, which indicates that this is simply an indefinite number of days, the same as it is used elsewhere - again - that particular form in that particular sort of context. I want to emphasize this point.

Given that we are told in scripture that a day is as a 1,000 years unto the lord, then to suggest that the reference to days in Daniel 11:33 should be considered as "two days of the Lord" is within the realams of acceptable understanding and is in agreement with the Prophecy found in Ex 20:4-6 where it refers to two protracted periods of time which is not associated with a "descenant generation" which people have used as their "technical understanding" because they have no other "better understanding" and they have locked in their "technical understanding" as the only understanding that should be accepted.

"Day as a 1000 years" is not a formula - it is a perspective. This is different. If you take it as a formula, then, let's be fair - apply it equally. As soon as you do that - apply it as a rule of interpreting ALL prophecy, you quickly see that it does not work.

And, btw, why should we not read Exodus 20:4-6 in the simply, plain way that it presents itself? When you reinterpret outside of the normal use of language, you make the Bible to say whatever you'd like it to say. You are redefining it's terms. The fact is, words mean things. God communicates with language, because language has meaning. Let's stick with the actual meaning of language, if you please.

But, if you wish to substitute other meanings for the normal ones, well, you can end up with all these different "ages", and other periods. If I were to do the same, I could end up with a bunch of different ones. And then what?

Is there wisdom in that?

I think we should read it for what it says, and simply receive it.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Jay Ross]

mark

Ezekiel 23:46-49: -
46 For thus says the Lord God: "Bring up a host against them, and make them an object of terror and a spoil. 47 And the host shall stone them and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses. 48 Thus will I put an end to lewdness in the land, that all women may take warning and not commit lewdness as you have done. 49 And your lewdness shall be requited upon you, and you shall bear the penalty for your sinful idolatry; and you shall know that I am the Lord God."

Ezekiel 43:6-9: - 6 While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple; 7 and he said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel for ever. And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their harlotry, and by the dead bodies of their kings, 8 by setting their threshold by my threshold and their doorposts beside my doorposts, with only a wall between me and them. They have defiled my holy name by their abominations which they have committed, so I have consumed them in my anger. 9 Now let them put away their idolatry and the dead bodies of their kings far from me, and I will dwell in their midst for ever.

How many years was decreed for israel's idolatry in the above passages?

Does not Isaiah 61:4 tells us that there are two ages of desolation and devastation if we do not apply the technical translation to the verse and read it literally?

Shalom

Jay Ross

[mark s]

I don't see any time duration named in these passages. Do you? Where are the numbers? Isaiah I'll need to look up later . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Jay Ross]

Mark

You are right, the two passages only tells us that Israel will suffer tribulation desolation and devastation as the Lord's anger consumes them for their idolatry.

Scripture also tells us that God informs His prophets of his intent and if He had Jeremiah inform the people that their exile would be for a period of 70 years in Babylon, would there not also be prophesies that tell us of the time span that God's anger will consume the people of Israel.

From History, we know that this tribulation and the selling of Israel into slavery and being scattered to the four corners of the world by the Greek empire, admittedly a subset of the Greek Empire, occurred around 70 CE and has continued unabated for up to and until the present time and that it is still running its course with some commentators expecting it to end at the time of the Armageddon event, a near future event. This time span is approaching 2,000 years in duration or 2 x 1,000 year periods in duration or two ages in duration or two days of the Lord.

I believe that God would have informed His prophets of this duration and the prophets would have recorded it, even Daniel, but Daniel tells us that he was told to not make it plain to the people but to leave it hidden within the words.

I wonder if now is not the time when God wants these hidden things to be revealed or is this just a on my part?

Shalom

Jay Ross

[mark s]

Hi Jay,

There is another viewpoint you may be interested in. One place it is described is HERE.

[Jay Ross]

Hi Jay,

There is another viewpoint you may be interested in. One place it is described is HERE.

Mark do you really agree with what the link is suggesting?

The only prophecy that I know of that describes the 1948 secular return to the land of the descendants of Abraham is Genesis 15:16 and that gave no firm indication as to when their return to the land would take place. It does tell us though that God's hand was not going to be involved in their return.

Both Daniel and Jeremiah indicate that Israel will return to the land but I am not aware of any clear indicative dates or time intervals as to when it would occur in their books.

Jesus indicated with the parable of the Fig tree that the beginning of the harvest summer season would begin around 91 plus years after the fig tree brought forth new leaves.

I also know that Ussher's chronology of the OT as well as Dr Floyd Nolen Jones dissertation on the Chronology of the Old Testament is flawed and that the wide acceptance of these works as being "gospel truth" has influenced people to use Ussher's timeline to fix dates etc. for Old Testament events. It is my view that T Lydiat's, Ussher's brother in-law, scholarly timeline of the OT may provide a better understanding with his suggestion that Adam was created in the year 4103 BCE rather than Ussher's 4004 BCE suggestion.

I did look at a number of their expressed understandings of Biblical prophecy and concluded that I can scratch that link off my reliable favorites folder and I do not think that that would be regarded as a .

Now do you have another link that is reliable?

Shalom

Jay Ross

[mark s]

Jay, I'm not trying to either defend or debate the view with you, I merely wished to bring it to your attention.

And, fwiw, whether or not you are of the same eschatology as that site, that matters little towards whether this particular timeline has merit. Do you have an actual disagreement or criticism of it's assertion?

Just curious . . .

Also, fwiw, I tend more towards a 4103 than 4004 BC for Adam's creation.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

Jesus indicated with the parable of the Fig tree that the beginning of the harvest summer season would begin around 91 plus years after the fig tree brought forth new leaves.

How exactly do you support this statement?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Jay Ross]

mark

Jesus indicated with the parable of the Fig tree that the beginning of the harvest summer season would begin around 91 plus years after the fig tree brought forth new leaves.

How exactly do you support this statement?

Love in Christ,
Mark

It is not rocket science; we know from obsevation that all plants usually break forth with new leaves just prior to the beginning of spring, depending on how harsh the winter has been. A mild winter usually means that the leaves break forth early whereas a bitterly cold long winter puts back the time when the new leaves break forth. We normally refer to having an early or late Spring.

The one verse parable states, "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near.”

If the leaves bud around the beginning of spring, we know that the Spring Season must run its full course before the Summer Season begins and it is during the Summer Season that the Harvest of the fields begins.

Each of the four seasons is aprroximately 91 days long (365.25 days in a year/4 seasons ≈ 91 days). Now because we have the varible of the earily or late Spring the timespan between when the fig tree buds and the beginning of the Summer harvest season will vary by up to 10 days and if we apply the rule of a day is equivalent to a year then 91 plus or minus up to 7 year years will transpire between when the nation of israel will first break forth and the beginning of the next season/age.

If this is the case then the end of this present age cannot be expected before say 2029 or after say 2049 depending on how early the Fig tree budded.

Too many commentators hang their hat on their miss understanding of verse 34 which states, " Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place." and do not apply the OT understanding where "dowr" is better understood to have the meaning of "an age" and is not associated with a "descendant generation." The writer of the Gospel may have been ignorant of this as well and interpreted the meaning of this verse as he understood it and used the Greek descentant generational word, "genea" instead of the Greek word for "age."

Shalom

Jay Ross

Because of this many are expecting that the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom is a very iminent event whereas, Matt 24:32 indicates that it is probably still some 30 plus years into our future

[Jay Ross]

Jay, I'm not trying to either defend or debate the view with you, I merely wished to bring it to your attention.

And, fwiw, whether or not you are of the same eschatology as that site, that matters little towards whether this particular timeline has merit. Do you have an actual disagreement or criticism of it's assertion?

Just curious . . .

Also, fwiw, I tend more towards a 4103 than 4004 BC for Adam's creation.

Love in Christ,
Mark

mark

I do not support their eschatology and believe that it is in grave error. Too many of their assumptions are wrong but it has many supporters and followers who want to believe that eschatology perspective.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[mark s]

Each of the four seasons is aprroximately 91 days long (365.25 days in a year/4 seasons ≈ 91 days). Now because we have the varible of the earily or late Spring the timespan between when the fig tree buds and the beginning of the Summer harvest season will vary by up to 10 days and if we apply the rule of a day is equivalent to a year then 91 plus or minus up to 7 year years will transpire between when the nation of israel will first break forth and the beginning of the next season/age.

Hi Jay,

A day for a year, based on the length of our seasons? Why not a 1000 years for a day? Why a day for a year? Why not a month for a day, or a day for a day, but more to the point,

Why not see this as the parable that it is?

Just like you know summer is near when the trees start to bud, so you know His coming is near when these things happen.

That's what He was saying, not a mathematical formula, missing valuable variables, to be filled in by whatever someone thinks they could be.

Besides, do trees bud on the first day of Spring? Trees around here are budding well before spring begins.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

Jay, I'm not trying to either defend or debate the view with you, I merely wished to bring it to your attention.

And, fwiw, whether or not you are of the same eschatology as that site, that matters little towards whether this particular timeline has merit. Do you have an actual disagreement or criticism of it's assertion?

Just curious . . .

Also, fwiw, I tend more towards a 4103 than 4004 BC for Adam's creation.

Love in Christ,
Mark

mark

I do not support their eschatology and believe that it is in grave error. Too many of their assumptions are wrong but it has many supporters and followers who want to believe that eschatology perspective.

Shalom

Jay Ross

OK, again, I wasn't asking you about their eschatology. My bringing this up was not due to their eschatology, rather, due to how they computed the return of national sovereignty to Israel, based on the correlation between these passages in Ezekiel and Leviticus.

Your methods of computing times reminded me of this one, although, to be honest, I feel that this one has a more specific foundation in the Scriptures. At least the actual numbers are named, and the "year for a day" substitution is actually named, as used in these passages.

If you are not interested, that's fine.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Jay Ross]

Each of the four seasons is aprroximately 91 days long (365.25 days in a year/4 seasons ≈ 91 days). Now because we have the varible of the earily or late Spring the timespan between when the fig tree buds and the beginning of the Summer harvest season will vary by up to 10 days and if we apply the rule of a day is equivalent to a year then 91 plus or minus up to 7 year years will transpire between when the nation of israel will first break forth and the beginning of the next season/age.

Hi Jay,

A day for a year, based on the length of our seasons? Why not a 1000 years for a day? Why a day for a year? Why not a month for a day, or a day for a day, but more to the point,

Why not see this as the parable that it is?

Just like you know summer is near when the trees start to bud, so you know His coming is near when these things happen.

That's what He was saying, not a mathematical formula, missing valuable variables, to be filled in by whatever someone thinks they could be.

Besides, do trees bud on the first day of Spring? Trees around here are budding well before spring begins.

Love in Christ,
Mark

mark

I believe that I made that very point in my post above and suggested that an early or late spring introduces a fair degree of uncertainity as to when the next age will begin.

In Daniel 9:24-27 is not a prophetic day understood to represents a year?

In ezekiel is not a day set aside for each year of israel and Judah's transgression? Is this not the accept rule used in eschatology or are you suggesting that I cannot use the same rule as others have done.

Jay, I'm not trying to either defend or debate the view with you, I merely wished to bring it to your attention.

And, fwiw, whether or not you are of the same eschatology as that site, that matters little towards whether this particular timeline has merit. Do you have an actual disagreement or criticism of it's assertion?

Just curious . . .

Also, fwiw, I tend more towards a 4103 than 4004 BC for Adam's creation.

Love in Christ,
Mark

mark

I do not support their eschatology and believe that it is in grave error. Too many of their assumptions are wrong but it has many supporters and followers who want to believe that eschatology perspective.

Shalom

Jay Ross

OK, again, I wasn't asking you about their eschatology. My bringing this up was not due to their eschatology, rather, due to how they computed the return of national sovereignty to Israel, based on the correlation between these passages in Ezekiel and Leviticus.

Your methods of computing times reminded me of this one, although, to be honest, I feel that this one has a more specific foundation in the Scriptures. At least the actual numbers are named, and the "year for a day" substitution is actually named, as used in these passages.

If you are not interested, that's fine.

Love in Christ,
Mark

The methodology of computing the number of days in a year based on a 360 day year and then converting it to the number of 365.25 day solar year to arrive at the answer ignores the fact that additional months were added on a regular basis to the jewish calender so as to keep it in step with the fixed Solar year. The comparison of years should be based on the practices applicable and be consistent.

The maths has been malipulated to come to the required answer of 1948. That in my view is wrong.

Shalom

Jay Ross