Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:40 pm

mark s wrote:Hi God'sStudent,

You may want to check out This Link.

I think it covers the relevant passages pretty well, acknowledging some of the questions that exist.

Hopefully helpful!

Much love,
Mark


Hi Mark

I read the link and like their recommendations to test everything when the author wrote: -

2. Test all things. We ought to consistently test all doctrines and religious ideas against Scripture. Even today, the spirit of antichrist is at work promoting heretical doctrine (see 1 John 4:1-3; 2 John 1:7). Scripture often warns against being deceived by false doctrine (Matthew 7:15-16; Matthew 24:4-11; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Corinthians 11:2-3; 2 Timothy 4:3-4). We protect ourselves by testing all teachings against Scripture (Acts 17:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:21).


Shalom
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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:32 pm

GodsStudent wrote:Suggestion: On this thread, lets stick to the facts about what these scriptures say. When you post a response, post the scripture you are speaking about (ie: Revelation 13: 1-4) and then comment on it.
Here's the first one.


Revelation 13:1-4 King James Version (KJV)


2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

This represents a group of nations /political systems that rules over “every tribe and people and tongue and nation,”, Rev 13:7

I don't think they are necessarily united in an organization, but rather their political systems are all
evil and totalitarian as are socialism, communism, fascism, etc., which are anti-Semitic and anti-Christian.

Therefore, I believe that the one head that is “wounded to death” is not a person, but rather a political system like Nazism which appeared to have received a death blow during WWII, but is being resurrected primarily in Europe.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Blessings,

sonbeam
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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby GodsStudent on Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:08 am

Thanks for the variety of responses everyone.
As I read your responses I thought, who can resist this group? You all are so different and yet, so personable! I love this group, nomatter what!
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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby mark s on Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:45 am

Hi GS,

I feel the same way! It's amazing what God can do with us given a little time!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby GodsStudent on Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:05 am

mark s wrote:Hi GS,

I feel the same way! It's amazing what God can do with us given a little time!

Much love!
Mark


:mrgreen: indeed.
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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby Mark F on Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:38 pm

Sonbeam above looks at that much like I do.

Others have mentioned the parallel passages in Daniel 7. There the lion, leopard, bear, etc are clearly kingdoms and people groups. I believe that expositional constancy is essential to understand clearly. Many take the verses you post (GodsStudent) and turn it into a man, the anti-Christ, and that he has a head wound.

I am of the belief this is only a reference to the last kingdom that will be occupying the land around Israel at the time just before Christ returns. It's too complicated to explain here and would be counter productive to the OP. Kingdoms are always made up of peoples, nations, and tongues. I think and argument can be made that the sea represents "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues" - Rev 17:15. Also Jesus parable in Matt where He will make the disciples "fishers of men", and of the dragnet, catching men from the sea, etc.

It makes sense then that the beast that rises up from the sea is the geo-political system made up of a combination of the peoples and nations described in Daniel 7. They are still there and identifiable If you follow the biblical names and regions, not the current ones.

I am of the belief that the ant-Christ is the beast that comes up out the earth, Rev 13:11-18. I don't see that there is the ant-Christ and his false prophet, I think the best out of the earth has his power within the kingdom which is the beast out of the sea. He is also found in Rev 16:13, and 20:10.

Rev 16:13 I believe helps clarify this as the "beast" in Daniel does reference kingdoms, so consistency would mean that beast in Rev means kingdom too.

There are other old testament passages that seem to describe him too. I'll see if I can remember where they are.

So then Daniel 11:36-45 I believe is the "willful king" aka the false prophet.
Mark

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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:26 pm

Reading your post I do believe that we see pretty much the same things in the referenced scripture verses.

I do have a question for you on your quote below

I am of the belief that the ant-Christ is the beast that comes up out the earth, Rev 13:11-18. I don't see that there is the ant-Christ and his false prophet, I think the best out of the earth has his power within the kingdom which is the beast out of the sea. He is also found in Rev 16:13, and 20:10.


Are you saying or do you believe that the anti-Christ and the false prophet are one and the same?

I'm undecided on this idea since there are some passages like Rev 16:13 and Rev 19:20 that seem to imply that these are to distinct persons.

Blessings,

sonbeam
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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby Mark F on Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:46 am

Sonbeam wrote:Reading your post I do believe that we see pretty much the same things in the referenced scripture verses.

I do have a question for you on your quote below

I am of the belief that the ant-Christ is the beast that comes up out the earth, Rev 13:11-18. I don't see that there is the ant-Christ and his false prophet, I think the best out of the earth has his power within the kingdom which is the beast out of the sea. He is also found in Rev 16:13, and 20:10.


Are you saying or do you believe that the anti-Christ and the false prophet are one and the same?

I'm undecided on this idea since there are some passages like Rev 16:13 and Rev 19:20 that seem to imply that these are to distinct persons.

Blessings,

sonbeam


sonbeam,
Good question. I have to admit that I cannot be dogmatic about it though. In Daniel 7:2-3 the vision begins saying "Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. 
Dan 7:3  And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other."


Then in Dan 7:17 'Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth."

The beasts (kingdoms) arise out of the sea, but the kings of those kingdoms arise from the earth?

It's possible this distinction is made, the beasts (kingdoms, nations, peoples) arise and out them the horns (kings) will arise.

Daniel 7:24-25 "The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings. 
Dan 7:25  He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time."


The beasts, the heads, the body parts arise first, the horns are the end times kings. Of course there are kings and leaders along the way of the growth of these kingdoms, but it is the horns, or the rising of the demonic leaders at the end time form of the beasts that the Bible describes.

Rev 17:9-13 seems to be along these lines. "Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 
Rev 17:10  There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 
Rev 17:11  The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 
Rev 17:12  "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 
Rev 17:13  These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast."


Here John writes, the seven heads are a conglomerate of seven kingdoms which includes all the past kingdoms. Noted separately is also 7 kings, 5 are dead, one is alive, the sixth at the time of the vision (90AD), and the seventh has not yet come.this one must suffer some sort of defeat and then returns to power as the eighth. I believe the way I do because the horns are noted separate from the the beast. I believe the lamb the rises from the earth but it speaks like a dragon fits other descriptions in Daniel of the coming evil king.

Rev 17:11 seems to imply that Satan has been the modis operandi of the seven kings and kingdoms noted in Rev13:9, so I believe when we equate the term and description of "beast" to the antichrist, we include almost everything......that's why it is so confusing.

So yes, I believe the antichrist and the false prophet are one man. I haven't had this stuff on my mind lately and this has been a refreshing look back, I think I'll keep up for now, maybe a fresh look at it :)
Mark

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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby extravagantchristian on Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:16 am

Sonbeam, Mark F,

I think you guys bring up a good question, how many people are involved in the multiple beasts of Revelation AND Daniel?
Daniel mentions 4 beasts, Revelation mentions 2.

Revelation 13 says that ONE of the heads of the beast will be wounded. So there must be multiple people per beast right?

Mark F How can the beast and the false prophet be the same person?

In these verses, the beast and false prophet sound like 2 separate people, right?

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


About the book of Revelation, John said that God gave Jesus these things to show His servants what must take place. That's the whole purpose of this book. This chunk of the Bible.

He makes it's true meaning hidden to the rest of the world, yet shows it to his servants.

So why not us right?

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.

Daniel 12:9
And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby Mark F on Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:17 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:Sonbeam, Mark F,

Revelation 13 says that ONE of the heads of the beast will be wounded. So there must be multiple people per beast right?

Mark F How can the beast and the false prophet be the same person?

In these verses, the beast and false prophet sound like 2 separate people, right?

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.




extravagantchristian,

This stuff is tuff to wrap your mind around, that is for sure.

Not that I am some authority or anything but I'll try to explain how I come to my understanding.
Revelation 13 says that ONE of the heads of the beast will be wounded. So there must be multiple people per beast right?

The seven heads can cause confusion for sure. Lets look at Rev 17:9-10 to help understand. "Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 
Rev 17:10  There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time."

The text says the 7 heads are 7 mountains, Then it states - "There are also 7 kings" not they are also 7 kings, but there ARE ALSO 7 kings. Daniel 2:35 clearly shows that a mountain can be synonymous with a kingdom: "....And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth." We know the stone that grew into a mountain is the kingdom that never ends, Dan 2:44.

Here is another use of mountain from Jeremiah 51 :24-25: "And I will repay Babylon And all the inhabitants of Chaldea For all the evil they have done In Zion in your sight," says the LORD. 
Jer 51:25  "Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys all the earth," says the LORD. "And I will stretch out My hand against you, Roll you down from the rocks, And make you a burnt mountain."


This is Babylon, personally I think about the harlot on the beast and the fall of Babylon, but that's for a different thread.

I think there are others but that will do for now, so getting the meaning of the beasts heads from Rev 17, if we return to Rev 13, we see that the wounded head is a kingdom, not a king.

Mark F How can the beast and the false prophet be the same person?

If you look the term "beast" is used for a bunch of things. The beasts in Daniel 7 are interpreted a kingdoms, principalities, powers, etc. They are also 4 kings, but that is a side note (Dan 7:17). The beasts arise from the "Great Sea" (Dan 7:2) but Dan 7:17 notes the kings arise from the earth. I think this is an important distinction. That is true also in Rev 13. The first beast rises from the sea, the second from the earth. In Rev 13, the horns are kings, people that rise up from the earth, they both can be described as beasts but I think that may just describe that they are evil beasts, dangerous beasts etc. Daniel 7:23 states the fourth beast is a fourth kingdom, an important distinction, the "people" or person are "horns." I think the designation beast implies they are satanic. Dan 8:20 equate the two horns of the ram to two kings, but the kings are not the ram.

Notice the "beast" of Rev 13:11, the "beast" out of the earth, I can't see any significance for his horns, but he appears as a lamb, (maybe that's the reason for the horns) but he speaks like a dragon. Notice the True Lamb of Rev 5:6 it has 7 horns.

Daniel 7:25 makes reference to how the "horn" speaks. I think this relates the horn to the lamb of Rev 13:11.

So for me Rev 13:1-10 isn't referring to the antichrist in a denotative sense, maybe in a connotative sense with the verses 5-7.
Mark

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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby Mark F on Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:35 am

Let me add, I know I may be totally wrong on the idea that only the beast out of the earth is AC, I still stand behind the understanding that the wounded head is not the antichrhist. The heads are not a man. The ten horns are end times kings, the 7 kings mentioned are historical.so if the beast out of the seas is AC, the best out of the earth the FP, no resurrection for him.
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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby Mark F on Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:40 pm

Has anyone considered Nebuchadnezzar erecting a gold image of himself and demanding people worship it on pain of death for those who refuse as a type of antichrist?

You also have the three Hebrews supernaturally protected from death while while refusing to bow to the image and Daniel is conspicuously missing...

Daniel chapter 3
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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:51 am

Mark F wrote:Let me add, I know I may be totally wrong on the idea that only the beast out of the earth is AC, I still stand behind the understanding that the wounded head is not the antichrhist. The heads are not a man. The ten horns are end times kings, the 7 kings mentioned are historical.so if the beast out of the seas is AC, the best out of the earth the FP, no resurrection for him.



I see it the same way. The heads are not men.

As I see it, the beast ( with the 7 heads) represents the masses of unbelieving humanity out of which many different political governing systems have risen.

Though the scriptures mention 7 heads, I think the number 7 encompasses more than that number of earthly governing systems.

Besides the many secular political systems like socialism, fascism, communism. capitalism etc., it would include also religious systems that are used as a backdrop by some to govern/enslave their followers.

All of these systems are spread out over different territories/countries, i.e., Russia, China, Cuba, Venezuela , Iran, etc., and therefore are governed by different kings/leaders. Therefore, some of these leaders will fall as power
is consolidated into perhaps one or two entities.

Revelation 17:10

They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.


:blessyou:

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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:55 pm

Mark F wrote:So yes, I believe the antichrist and the false prophet are one man.


:clap2:

Finally - someone who agrees. I have been saying this for years.

Revelation 13 speaks of an End Time Kingdom and a single man. I won't go through my own theory of mentioning how the Beast from the Sea is none other than the 4th and Final Empire mentioned in the book of Daniel - and that the Beast from the Earth is none other than the coming Antichrist, as I've mentioned this many, many times on this forum.

We must remember that the book of Revelation, and the book of Daniel are highly symbolic - and metaphorical language is used to depict and/or illustrate what events are occurring surrounding the even of Antichrist. I believe that based on what has been written in Revelation 13, and what we currently see in the EU describes exactly what is going on. Also consider that the Revelation 13 describes this Kingdom arising before the man - therefore it makes sense, and it works in perfect harmony in what has been described in Daniel 7 (4th & Final Empire) and a single man who is the head.

I further believe that many are missing or overlooking how the EU has united; very serious talks are forth coming about establishing an EU Army; as a Union, they bailed out a sovereign nation like Greece; Brexit is on the table (We should watch and see if the UK actually exits the EU - I personally don't believe it will happen); and the fact that 10 Nations established a High Representative under Article 666. Folks, you just can't make this stuff up. Therefore, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the coming Antichrist will be European.
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Re: Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:55 am


John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.


I believe this to be a prophecy uttered by Jesus regarding the coming false messiah.


There are many who believe that Jesus was referring to the coming Antichrist in John 5:43 - but a careful reading of John 5 in it's entirety, will prove that this is an erroneous interpretation.

In the days when Jesus was doing His Ministry, a persons "name" was his bond. The people of Israel were only accepting Jesus because of the miracles He was performing. When a man came in his "name" it was because he was providing something that the children of Israel desired, needed, or had curiosity about. Jesus came in the Name of the Father - and they rejected Him - save for the miracles that He freely provided to them. Jesus knew this. Hence He stated:

" I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

When Jesus mentioned "another" in the aforementioned passages of Scripture - He meant "ANYONE" who would come in his own name - and the Jews would receive that particular person. He was NOT referring to the coming Antichrist. The most unfortunate thing about the faulty interpretation that Jesus is referring to coming Antichrist is - most have founded and established doctrine on this one verse.

A careful study of Scripture will reveal that Jesus NEVER referred to the coming Antichrist - or even mentioned him. HE specifically mentioned the AOD - not the Antichrist. One must question - "Why is this?"

Please see Matthew 24:3; when the Disciples came to Him privately - and asked Him about the Sign of His Coming, and of the End of the Age. Jesus mentions many things, and refers to the AOD as something to view (Matthew 24:15) - but He NEVER mentions the man of sin.
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