Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

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Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:37 am

Daniel 9:24
24 “Seventy [t]weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to [u]finish the transgression, to [v]make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and [w]prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

It is my belief that the 70 weeks have concluded.
How does that affect the definition of the goals listed in Daniel 9:24.

Please, I do not want to debate whether the 70th week has been completed.
However, if you believe the 70th week is not yet completed, discussion on how that changes the definitions are welcome.

Thanks,

Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:46 am

Hi Keith,
Will post as much as I can...it's a time thing right now though. Can you first list the Definitions of each of them as you see the Goals as Completely fulfilled.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:13 am

Hi Keith!

Been a while since I posted here, though I like to check in daily and see what you guys are up to. :-)


I don’t believe the 70th week has been completed and here’s why.

1, Christ’s work on the Cross fulfilled “finish the transgression, make an end of sin, and make atonement for iniquity.”

2. When Christ returns He will bring everlasting righteousness (eternity for the saints with Him), seal up vision and prophecy (obviously) and the anointing of the most holy place (the body of Christ).

Blessings,
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:29 am

Shorttrib,

OK. We can start there. But, understand I am not hard and fast on my definitions.

Daniel 9:24
24 Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
1) to finish the transgression,
2) to make an end of sin,
3) to make atonement for iniquity,
4) to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5) to seal up vision and prophecy
6) and to anoint the most holy place.


1) To finish the transgression. My understanding of this one comes from the parable of the tenants. The owner of the vineyard sent his son after the transgressions of killing the servants (prophets). I think the owner (God) of the vineyard was not happy with the tenants (Jews) behavior and decided to give them a situations that forced them to choose one side or the other. He sent his son (Christ). I don't think God was willing to take tenancy away from the Jews until they made this final choice of killing his son. In doing so, the Jews publicly demonstrated their rebellion was not going to end. Since God knows the hearts of men, he already knew what they would do. God is just. He did not take away their tenancy based upon their hearts, He took it away based upon their actions; something that cannot be argued against. This was prophesied by Moses in Deuteronomy 4.

2) To make an End of Sin. In Deuteronomy 4 Moses tells the people "When" they do these things, not "If" they do these things. Christ changed "when" to "if". What does this mean? It means we are free to stop sinning. We have a choice. Slavery to sin has been abolished. I am not saying we will suffer the same fate as the Jews for not overcoming sin as we ought.

3) To make an atonement for iniquity. Christ's death paid the price for our sins.

4) To bring in everlasting righteousness. Everlasting righteousness has always existed with God. But that righteousness was not available to us. Just as sin was brought into the world by Adam, everlasting righteousness was brought into the world by Christ. It is now available to us here and now.

5) To seal up vision and prophecy. I don't have a good response for this one. It might be to blind the Jews as Christ did by talking in parables. It might mean vision and prophecy up to that time has been completed and like a completed letter they were sealed in an envelope. It might mean all Christ centered prophecies have been fulfilled, any remaining are not yet to be understood. It might mean that for the Jews, there would be no more vision and prophecy. I am not certain on this one.

6) And to anoint the Most Holy Place. This could be the anointing of the heavenly temple as its copy was anointed on the earth. It could be anointing center of the world, Jerusalem, with the spilled blood of Christ; hence the spear in His side. Again, I am not certain on this one.


Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:45 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:32 am

Sonbeam,

Does you belief that the goals have not been accomplished result in your belief the 70 weeks are incomplete?
Or
Does your belief the 70 weeks are not yet completed mean some goals must therefore be outstanding?
Or
Do the two beliefs kind of work together to reinforce one another?

Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:22 am

keithareilly wrote:Sonbeam,

Does you belief that the goals have not been accomplished result in your belief the 70 weeks are incomplete?

Or
Does your belief the 70 weeks are not yet completed mean some goals must therefore be outstanding?
Or
Do the two beliefs kind of work together to reinforce one another?

Keith


The fact that some goals have obviously not been accomplished as I see it is what leads me believe the 70th week is still in progress and will be completed when the LORD returns Keith.



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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:55 am

Sonbeam,

OK, Thanks.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:40 pm

Hi Keith,

I'm trying to understand the 70th week....

First,69 sevens that equals to 483 years. A decree was issued by Artaxerxes to rebuild the city of Jerusalem in 445 B.C.
In Neh. 2:1-9,
1 And it came to pass in the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes, when wine was before him, that I took the wine and gave it to the king. Now I had never been sad in his presence before. 2 Therefore the king said to me, “Why is your face sad, since you are not sick? This is nothing but sorrow of heart.”
So I became dreadfully afraid, 3 and said to the king, “May the king live forever! Why should my face not be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers’ tombs, lies waste, and its gates are burned with fire?” 
4 Then the king said to me, “What do you request?” 
So I prayed to the God of heaven. 5 And I said to the king, “If it pleases the king, and if your servant has found favor in your sight, I ask that you send me to Judah, to the city of my fathers’ tombs, that I may rebuild it.” 
6 Then the king said to me (the queen also sitting beside him), “How long will your journey be? And when will you return?” So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time. 
7 Furthermore I said to the king, “If it pleases the king, let letters be given to me for the governors of the region beyond the River, that they must permit me to pass through till I come to Judah, 8 and a letter to Asaph the keeper of the king’s forest, that he must give me timber to make beams for the gates of the citadel which pertains to the temple, for the city wall, and for the house that I will occupy.” And the king granted them to me according to the good hand of my God upon me. 
9 Then I went to the governors in the region beyond the River, and gave them the king’s letters. Now the king had sent captains of the army and horsemen with me. 10 When Sanballat the Horonite and Tobiah the Ammonite official heard of it, they were deeply disturbed that a man had come to seek the well-being of the children of Israel.

From 445 B.C. to Jesus Triumph Entry into Jerusalem is 483 years(Jewish calendar), The fulfilling of 69 weeks.

Can you help me understand the fulfilling of the 70th week?

Thanks bro....
In Christ Always,
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:01 pm

Woody,

My view of the 70 weeks is they are contiguous, the second week right after the first, the 55th right after 54th, the 70th coming right after 69th. Daniel 9:24 says messiah was cut-off after the 7 and 62 or after the 69th week. The only week left of the 70 weeks in which he could have been crucified, resurrected, spent 40 days, ascended, etc., is the 70th week. In Daniel 9:24-26, all 70 weeks are mentioned, the first 7 and 62 are mentioned explicitly, the 70th implicitly. I do not believe the one week in Daniel 9:27 is part of the 70 weeks but is a prophecy about the consequences of Christ being crucified during the 70 weeks. The parable of the tenants describes two main events, the coming of the Son, the owner of the vineyard destroying the tenants for killing the Son. The one week of Daniel 9:27 describes the the First Jewish Roman War, in which the owner of the vineyard destroyed the temple and killed the tenants; the war lasted 7 years (one week).

So we have a list of goals in Daniel 9:24 which are to accomplished during the 70 weeks. If you examine those goals, you will discover that Christ's crucifixion, resurrection, and possibly His accession are necessary for those goals to be completed. This means the crucifixion and resurrection had to have happened during the 70 weeks. They did not happen during the first 6 and 62 weeks as the Messiah was cut-off after those weeks per verse 26. The only week left for these events, which prophecy says must be accomplished during the 70 weeks, is the week immediately following the 69th week, that is the 70th week.



As I said in my opening post, I do not want to debate this in this thread. But it might be helpful to have this explanation here for you and other readers.

Because I believe the 70 weeks are complete, I also believe the goals of verse 24 must therefore have been accomplished.

This study is about the definition of the goals in Daniel 9:24. If the 70 weeks are indeed completed, then the definition of those goals must reflect those goals having been completed instead of one or more goals remaining outstanding.

Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:53 pm

keithareilly wrote:Woody,

My view of the 70 weeks is they are contiguous, the second week right after the first, the 55th right after 54th, the 70th coming right after 69th. Daniel 9:24 says messiah was cut-off after the 7 and 62 or after the 69th week. The only week left of the 70 weeks in which he could have been crucified, resurrected, spent 40 days, ascended, etc., is the 70th week. In Daniel 9:24-26, all 70 weeks are mentioned, the first 7 and 62 are mentioned explicitly, the 70th implicitly. I do not believe the one week in Daniel 9:27 is part of the 70 weeks but is a prophecy about the consequences of Christ being crucified during the 70 weeks. The parable of the tenants describes two main events, the coming of the Son, the owner of the vineyard destroying the tenants for killing the Son. The one week of Daniel 9:27 describes the the First Jewish Roman War, in which the owner of the vineyard destroyed the temple and killed the tenants; the war lasted 7 years (one week).

So we have a list of goals in Daniel 9:24 which are to accomplished during the 70 weeks. If you examine those goals, you will discover that Christ's crucifixion, resurrection, and possibly His accession are necessary for those goals to be completed. This means the crucifixion and resurrection had to have happened during the 70 weeks. They did not happen during the first 6 and 62 weeks as the Messiah was cut-off after those weeks per verse 26. The only week left for these events, which prophecy says must be accomplished during the 70 weeks, is the week immediately following the 69th week, that is the 70th week.



As I said in my opening post, I do not want to debate this in this thread. But it might be helpful to have this explanation here for you and other readers.

Because I believe the 70 weeks are complete, I also believe the goals of verse 24 must therefore have been accomplished.

This study is about the definition of the goals in Daniel 9:24. If the 70 weeks are indeed completed, then the definition of those goals must reflect those goals having been completed instead of one or more goals remaining outstanding.

Keith


Thank you so much for explaining it to me, it makes a lot of sense to me to what you're saying....
In Christ Always,
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby brett on Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:17 pm

I do not believe the 70 weeks are complete. 69 of them are complete, but Daniels 70th week remains yet to come to pass.

I thought this was common knowledge among most Christians, the coming 70th week of Daniel being the last week of this Age, the time of the 7 Seals, the AOD at the midpoint and the 7 Trumpet and 7 bowl judgements, Anti-Christ reign, 2 witnesses, etc.

70th week has not yet come ! It will start when the 1st Seal is opened and when a covenant of many is confirmed by the Anti-Christ.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:59 pm

brett wrote:I do not believe the 70 weeks are complete. 69 of them are complete, but Daniels 70th week remains yet to come to pass.

I thought this was common knowledge among most Christians, the coming 70th week of Daniel being the last week of this Age, the time of the 7 Seals, the AOD at the midpoint and the 7 Trumpet and 7 bowl judgements, Anti-Christ reign, 2 witnesses, etc.

70th week has not yet come ! It will start when the 1st Seal is opened and when a covenant of many is confirmed by the Anti-Christ.

.

Brett,
you've just mentioned a very common dispensationalist's form of understanding prophecy. Keith is an Historicist. He looks at the full 70 weeks as fulfilled. There Are Reasons he believes so, sound ones. Although I do not agree entirely with him, there are many points we agree on.
Primarily, we agree that Christ, By Necessity WAS Crucified During the 70th week.
That is partly why he has brought out the important discussion regarding the Requirements, or Goals MET DURING the 70th week.

What you must contend with in your Full Dispensationalist view is the fact the YOU Believe that Christ was not even Crucified IN ANY SINGLE ONE of the 70 weeks Proper.
Your opinion Does Have Christ Crucified in the GAP...BETWEEN the 69th and the 70th week.

I hope you can see the difficulty in that thinking.

This thread is designed to DEFINE THOSE GOALS or REQUIREMENTS listed at the Beginning of it.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:05 am

Brett and Shorttrib,

Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Notice the scope of the statement is: 70 weeks, your people, your holy city, and the six goals.
The six goals have a scope in which they are to be accomplished:
1) during a 70 week time frame,
2) with the participation of Daniel's people,
3) and involve Daniel's holy city.

Consequently, the events that accomplish the goals must also occur:
1) in that time frame,
2) with the participation of Daniel's people
3) and involve Daniel's holy city.

Therefore, events that do not occur:
1) during the 70 weeks,
2) with the participation of Daniels people
3) and involve Jerusalem
are not events that accomplish the goals.

Consequently, If the crucifixion and resurrection:
1) occur outside the 70 weeks (in a gap for example)
2) OR the Jews were not involved and it was only the Romans,
3) OR the Jerusalem that was built with with a moat and plaza in times of trouble was not the city,
then the crucifixion and resurrection have nothing to do with accomplishing the goals.

9:25
25“So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

Verse 25 tells us a beginning event and an ending event for the first sixty nine weeks. It also tells us in which future Jerusalem the events are to take place; the one to be built during the sixty nine weeks, not modern Jerusalem.

The problem with part of the goals being outstanding is the scope in which the goals are to be accomplished no longer exist. The 70 weeks are passed. The Jerusalem the verse states was to be the city for the accomplishment of the goals no longer exists and can never exist again. Modern Jerusalem is not part of this prophecy. It is the Jerusalem that was built as described in this prophecy which is the scope of this prophecy.

Again, events outside the scope of the prophecy cannot contribute to the accomplishment of the goals. The events which accomplish these goals must occur during the 70 weeks, in the city, Jerusalem, the one described in the prophecy, and by Daniel's people.

The scope are the boundaries of the prophecy; the scope confines the prophecy, therefore, the goals.

Keith

Edited for clarity 3.24.17
Last edited by keithareilly on Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:10 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:48 am

Keith,
Do you believe that the 69th week ended the day of "Jesus triumph entry" and then the 70th week began?
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:11 am

Woody,


I do not have a position on that.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:26 am

keithareilly wrote:Woody,


I do not have a position on that.

Keith

I thought you're a historian.... I find it interesting that the 69 weeks(483 years) ended right at the day of Jesus triumph entry, one week before his death.... the crucification, resurrection, etc all happened in the very beginning of the 70th week, right?

When prophesy is fulfilled, I'd like to see the history and timespan to understand the fulfillment ....
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:24 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:I thought you're a historian.... I find it interesting that the 69 weeks(483 years) ended right at the day of Jesus triumph entry, one week before his death.... the crucification, resurrection, etc all happened in the very beginning of the 70th week, right?

When prophesy is fulfilled, I'd like to see the history and timespan to understand the fulfillment ....


Woody,

I am not a historian. I do examine history for prophecy fulfillment and I do have some views on prophecy that have resulted in some people to label me as practicing historicism, which is a type of view concerning prophecy. People debate when Christ was crucified, some right after the 69th week as you have said, others in the middle of the week. In both cases it is during the 70th week which is all the detail scripture provides us with without interpretation.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:07 pm

In both cases it is during the 70th week which is all the detail scripture provides us with without interpretation.


I agree...


Of course history could help us understand scriptures...
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:08 pm

Hi Keith,
If I labeled you incorrectly then I will certainly apologize. I did think of you as an historicist in your prophecy understanding. There are several varieties among historicist also, it seems you are close to an historicists opinion of some kind though.

And my apologies also to Woody in that he apparently understood what I said as your being an historian rather than an historicist. I could have been clearer in that regard.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:17 pm

Shorttrib,

Not a problem, might becoming one, who knows.

I saw your post and was hoping it was in response to what I wrote to you and Brett.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:33 am

Hi Keith, Edited(I had originally addressed this comment to brett) it was actually meant for Keith....sorry for any confusion :mrgreen:
The juggling of time has been not so easy the past few days, but will try now to make a few comments.
First, it is clear that we will not be able to prove absolutely the definitions that we will discuss. If we stand on the, "it doesn't say that exact thing in THAT text", or that is "reading into" something that is not Directly Said in a given text, we shall not be able to compare Any scripture with scripture and we might as well end our discussion here.

Do you agree with that?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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