Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

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Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:37 am

Daniel 9:24
24 “Seventy [t]weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to [u]finish the transgression, to [v]make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and [w]prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

It is my belief that the 70 weeks have concluded.
How does that affect the definition of the goals listed in Daniel 9:24.

Please, I do not want to debate whether the 70th week has been completed.
However, if you believe the 70th week is not yet completed, discussion on how that changes the definitions are welcome.

Thanks,

Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:46 am

Hi Keith,
Will post as much as I can...it's a time thing right now though. Can you first list the Definitions of each of them as you see the Goals as Completely fulfilled.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:13 am

Hi Keith!

Been a while since I posted here, though I like to check in daily and see what you guys are up to. :-)


I don’t believe the 70th week has been completed and here’s why.

1, Christ’s work on the Cross fulfilled “finish the transgression, make an end of sin, and make atonement for iniquity.”

2. When Christ returns He will bring everlasting righteousness (eternity for the saints with Him), seal up vision and prophecy (obviously) and the anointing of the most holy place (the body of Christ).

Blessings,
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:29 am

Shorttrib,

OK. We can start there. But, understand I am not hard and fast on my definitions.

Daniel 9:24
24 Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
1) to finish the transgression,
2) to make an end of sin,
3) to make atonement for iniquity,
4) to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5) to seal up vision and prophecy
6) and to anoint the most holy place.


1) To finish the transgression. My understanding of this one comes from the parable of the tenants. The owner of the vineyard sent his son after the transgressions of killing the servants (prophets). I think the owner (God) of the vineyard was not happy with the tenants (Jews) behavior and decided to give them a situations that forced them to choose one side or the other. He sent his son (Christ). I don't think God was willing to take tenancy away from the Jews until they made this final choice of killing his son. In doing so, the Jews publicly demonstrated their rebellion was not going to end. Since God knows the hearts of men, he already knew what they would do. God is just. He did not take away their tenancy based upon their hearts, He took it away based upon their actions; something that cannot be argued against. This was prophesied by Moses in Deuteronomy 4.

2) To make an End of Sin. In Deuteronomy 4 Moses tells the people "When" they do these things, not "If" they do these things. Christ changed "when" to "if". What does this mean? It means we are free to stop sinning. We have a choice. Slavery to sin has been abolished. I am not saying we will suffer the same fate as the Jews for not overcoming sin as we ought.

3) To make an atonement for iniquity. Christ's death paid the price for our sins.

4) To bring in everlasting righteousness. Everlasting righteousness has always existed with God. But that righteousness was not available to us. Just as sin was brought into the world by Adam, everlasting righteousness was brought into the world by Christ. It is now available to us here and now.

5) To seal up vision and prophecy. I don't have a good response for this one. It might be to blind the Jews as Christ did by talking in parables. It might mean vision and prophecy up to that time has been completed and like a completed letter they were sealed in an envelope. It might mean all Christ centered prophecies have been fulfilled, any remaining are not yet to be understood. It might mean that for the Jews, there would be no more vision and prophecy. I am not certain on this one.

6) And to anoint the Most Holy Place. This could be the anointing of the heavenly temple as its copy was anointed on the earth. It could be anointing center of the world, Jerusalem, with the spilled blood of Christ; hence the spear in His side. Again, I am not certain on this one.


Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:45 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:32 am

Sonbeam,

Does you belief that the goals have not been accomplished result in your belief the 70 weeks are incomplete?
Or
Does your belief the 70 weeks are not yet completed mean some goals must therefore be outstanding?
Or
Do the two beliefs kind of work together to reinforce one another?

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:22 am

keithareilly wrote:Sonbeam,

Does you belief that the goals have not been accomplished result in your belief the 70 weeks are incomplete?

Or
Does your belief the 70 weeks are not yet completed mean some goals must therefore be outstanding?
Or
Do the two beliefs kind of work together to reinforce one another?

Keith


The fact that some goals have obviously not been accomplished as I see it is what leads me believe the 70th week is still in progress and will be completed when the LORD returns Keith.



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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:55 am

Sonbeam,

OK, Thanks.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:40 pm

Hi Keith,

I'm trying to understand the 70th week....

First,69 sevens that equals to 483 years. A decree was issued by Artaxerxes to rebuild the city of Jerusalem in 445 B.C.
In Neh. 2:1-9,
1 And it came to pass in the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes, when wine was before him, that I took the wine and gave it to the king. Now I had never been sad in his presence before. 2 Therefore the king said to me, “Why is your face sad, since you are not sick? This is nothing but sorrow of heart.”
So I became dreadfully afraid, 3 and said to the king, “May the king live forever! Why should my face not be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers’ tombs, lies waste, and its gates are burned with fire?” 
4 Then the king said to me, “What do you request?” 
So I prayed to the God of heaven. 5 And I said to the king, “If it pleases the king, and if your servant has found favor in your sight, I ask that you send me to Judah, to the city of my fathers’ tombs, that I may rebuild it.” 
6 Then the king said to me (the queen also sitting beside him), “How long will your journey be? And when will you return?” So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time. 
7 Furthermore I said to the king, “If it pleases the king, let letters be given to me for the governors of the region beyond the River, that they must permit me to pass through till I come to Judah, 8 and a letter to Asaph the keeper of the king’s forest, that he must give me timber to make beams for the gates of the citadel which pertains to the temple, for the city wall, and for the house that I will occupy.” And the king granted them to me according to the good hand of my God upon me. 
9 Then I went to the governors in the region beyond the River, and gave them the king’s letters. Now the king had sent captains of the army and horsemen with me. 10 When Sanballat the Horonite and Tobiah the Ammonite official heard of it, they were deeply disturbed that a man had come to seek the well-being of the children of Israel.

From 445 B.C. to Jesus Triumph Entry into Jerusalem is 483 years(Jewish calendar), The fulfilling of 69 weeks.

Can you help me understand the fulfilling of the 70th week?

Thanks bro....
In Christ Always,
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:01 pm

Woody,

My view of the 70 weeks is they are contiguous, the second week right after the first, the 55th right after 54th, the 70th coming right after 69th. Daniel 9:24 says messiah was cut-off after the 7 and 62 or after the 69th week. The only week left of the 70 weeks in which he could have been crucified, resurrected, spent 40 days, ascended, etc., is the 70th week. In Daniel 9:24-26, all 70 weeks are mentioned, the first 7 and 62 are mentioned explicitly, the 70th implicitly. I do not believe the one week in Daniel 9:27 is part of the 70 weeks but is a prophecy about the consequences of Christ being crucified during the 70 weeks. The parable of the tenants describes two main events, the coming of the Son, the owner of the vineyard destroying the tenants for killing the Son. The one week of Daniel 9:27 describes the the First Jewish Roman War, in which the owner of the vineyard destroyed the temple and killed the tenants; the war lasted 7 years (one week).

So we have a list of goals in Daniel 9:24 which are to accomplished during the 70 weeks. If you examine those goals, you will discover that Christ's crucifixion, resurrection, and possibly His accession are necessary for those goals to be completed. This means the crucifixion and resurrection had to have happened during the 70 weeks. They did not happen during the first 6 and 62 weeks as the Messiah was cut-off after those weeks per verse 26. The only week left for these events, which prophecy says must be accomplished during the 70 weeks, is the week immediately following the 69th week, that is the 70th week.



As I said in my opening post, I do not want to debate this in this thread. But it might be helpful to have this explanation here for you and other readers.

Because I believe the 70 weeks are complete, I also believe the goals of verse 24 must therefore have been accomplished.

This study is about the definition of the goals in Daniel 9:24. If the 70 weeks are indeed completed, then the definition of those goals must reflect those goals having been completed instead of one or more goals remaining outstanding.

Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:53 pm

keithareilly wrote:Woody,

My view of the 70 weeks is they are contiguous, the second week right after the first, the 55th right after 54th, the 70th coming right after 69th. Daniel 9:24 says messiah was cut-off after the 7 and 62 or after the 69th week. The only week left of the 70 weeks in which he could have been crucified, resurrected, spent 40 days, ascended, etc., is the 70th week. In Daniel 9:24-26, all 70 weeks are mentioned, the first 7 and 62 are mentioned explicitly, the 70th implicitly. I do not believe the one week in Daniel 9:27 is part of the 70 weeks but is a prophecy about the consequences of Christ being crucified during the 70 weeks. The parable of the tenants describes two main events, the coming of the Son, the owner of the vineyard destroying the tenants for killing the Son. The one week of Daniel 9:27 describes the the First Jewish Roman War, in which the owner of the vineyard destroyed the temple and killed the tenants; the war lasted 7 years (one week).

So we have a list of goals in Daniel 9:24 which are to accomplished during the 70 weeks. If you examine those goals, you will discover that Christ's crucifixion, resurrection, and possibly His accession are necessary for those goals to be completed. This means the crucifixion and resurrection had to have happened during the 70 weeks. They did not happen during the first 6 and 62 weeks as the Messiah was cut-off after those weeks per verse 26. The only week left for these events, which prophecy says must be accomplished during the 70 weeks, is the week immediately following the 69th week, that is the 70th week.



As I said in my opening post, I do not want to debate this in this thread. But it might be helpful to have this explanation here for you and other readers.

Because I believe the 70 weeks are complete, I also believe the goals of verse 24 must therefore have been accomplished.

This study is about the definition of the goals in Daniel 9:24. If the 70 weeks are indeed completed, then the definition of those goals must reflect those goals having been completed instead of one or more goals remaining outstanding.

Keith


Thank you so much for explaining it to me, it makes a lot of sense to me to what you're saying....
In Christ Always,
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby brett on Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:17 pm

I do not believe the 70 weeks are complete. 69 of them are complete, but Daniels 70th week remains yet to come to pass.

I thought this was common knowledge among most Christians, the coming 70th week of Daniel being the last week of this Age, the time of the 7 Seals, the AOD at the midpoint and the 7 Trumpet and 7 bowl judgements, Anti-Christ reign, 2 witnesses, etc.

70th week has not yet come ! It will start when the 1st Seal is opened and when a covenant of many is confirmed by the Anti-Christ.

.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:59 pm

brett wrote:I do not believe the 70 weeks are complete. 69 of them are complete, but Daniels 70th week remains yet to come to pass.

I thought this was common knowledge among most Christians, the coming 70th week of Daniel being the last week of this Age, the time of the 7 Seals, the AOD at the midpoint and the 7 Trumpet and 7 bowl judgements, Anti-Christ reign, 2 witnesses, etc.

70th week has not yet come ! It will start when the 1st Seal is opened and when a covenant of many is confirmed by the Anti-Christ.

.

Brett,
you've just mentioned a very common dispensationalist's form of understanding prophecy. Keith is an Historicist. He looks at the full 70 weeks as fulfilled. There Are Reasons he believes so, sound ones. Although I do not agree entirely with him, there are many points we agree on.
Primarily, we agree that Christ, By Necessity WAS Crucified During the 70th week.
That is partly why he has brought out the important discussion regarding the Requirements, or Goals MET DURING the 70th week.

What you must contend with in your Full Dispensationalist view is the fact the YOU Believe that Christ was not even Crucified IN ANY SINGLE ONE of the 70 weeks Proper.
Your opinion Does Have Christ Crucified in the GAP...BETWEEN the 69th and the 70th week.

I hope you can see the difficulty in that thinking.

This thread is designed to DEFINE THOSE GOALS or REQUIREMENTS listed at the Beginning of it.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:05 am

Brett and Shorttrib,

Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Notice the scope of the statement is: 70 weeks, your people, your holy city, and the six goals.
The six goals have a scope in which they are to be accomplished:
1) during a 70 week time frame,
2) with the participation of Daniel's people,
3) and involve Daniel's holy city.

Consequently, the events that accomplish the goals must also occur:
1) in that time frame,
2) with the participation of Daniel's people
3) and involve Daniel's holy city.

Therefore, events that do not occur:
1) during the 70 weeks,
2) with the participation of Daniels people
3) and involve Jerusalem
are not events that accomplish the goals.

Consequently, If the crucifixion and resurrection:
1) occur outside the 70 weeks (in a gap for example)
2) OR the Jews were not involved and it was only the Romans,
3) OR the Jerusalem that was built with with a moat and plaza in times of trouble was not the city,
then the crucifixion and resurrection have nothing to do with accomplishing the goals.

9:25
25“So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

Verse 25 tells us a beginning event and an ending event for the first sixty nine weeks. It also tells us in which future Jerusalem the events are to take place; the one to be built during the sixty nine weeks, not modern Jerusalem.

The problem with part of the goals being outstanding is the scope in which the goals are to be accomplished no longer exist. The 70 weeks are passed. The Jerusalem the verse states was to be the city for the accomplishment of the goals no longer exists and can never exist again. Modern Jerusalem is not part of this prophecy. It is the Jerusalem that was built as described in this prophecy which is the scope of this prophecy.

Again, events outside the scope of the prophecy cannot contribute to the accomplishment of the goals. The events which accomplish these goals must occur during the 70 weeks, in the city, Jerusalem, the one described in the prophecy, and by Daniel's people.

The scope are the boundaries of the prophecy; the scope confines the prophecy, therefore, the goals.

Keith

Edited for clarity 3.24.17
Last edited by keithareilly on Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:10 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:48 am

Keith,
Do you believe that the 69th week ended the day of "Jesus triumph entry" and then the 70th week began?
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:11 am

Woody,


I do not have a position on that.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:26 am

keithareilly wrote:Woody,


I do not have a position on that.

Keith

I thought you're a historian.... I find it interesting that the 69 weeks(483 years) ended right at the day of Jesus triumph entry, one week before his death.... the crucification, resurrection, etc all happened in the very beginning of the 70th week, right?

When prophesy is fulfilled, I'd like to see the history and timespan to understand the fulfillment ....
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:24 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:I thought you're a historian.... I find it interesting that the 69 weeks(483 years) ended right at the day of Jesus triumph entry, one week before his death.... the crucification, resurrection, etc all happened in the very beginning of the 70th week, right?

When prophesy is fulfilled, I'd like to see the history and timespan to understand the fulfillment ....


Woody,

I am not a historian. I do examine history for prophecy fulfillment and I do have some views on prophecy that have resulted in some people to label me as practicing historicism, which is a type of view concerning prophecy. People debate when Christ was crucified, some right after the 69th week as you have said, others in the middle of the week. In both cases it is during the 70th week which is all the detail scripture provides us with without interpretation.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:07 pm

In both cases it is during the 70th week which is all the detail scripture provides us with without interpretation.


I agree...


Of course history could help us understand scriptures...
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:08 pm

Hi Keith,
If I labeled you incorrectly then I will certainly apologize. I did think of you as an historicist in your prophecy understanding. There are several varieties among historicist also, it seems you are close to an historicists opinion of some kind though.

And my apologies also to Woody in that he apparently understood what I said as your being an historian rather than an historicist. I could have been clearer in that regard.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:17 pm

Shorttrib,

Not a problem, might becoming one, who knows.

I saw your post and was hoping it was in response to what I wrote to you and Brett.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:33 am

Hi Keith, Edited(I had originally addressed this comment to brett) it was actually meant for Keith....sorry for any confusion :mrgreen:
The juggling of time has been not so easy the past few days, but will try now to make a few comments.
First, it is clear that we will not be able to prove absolutely the definitions that we will discuss. If we stand on the, "it doesn't say that exact thing in THAT text", or that is "reading into" something that is not Directly Said in a given text, we shall not be able to compare Any scripture with scripture and we might as well end our discussion here.

Do you agree with that?
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:07 am

Shorttrib,

I am not too worried about specificity in this topic. I am looking for more discussion.
That does not mean I may not say, "It does not say that" or "That is reading into something".
I can be rigid about what scriptures say, but that does not mean I am correct.

Besides, does not really matter here. I am looking for viewpoints and understanding.

As I said in the other thread, I think in part we do not grasp what was completed. Consequently, we deny the power of our salvation. This is a work in process theory and I would like to explore that possibility with others. If what I suspect is true, I would like help better understanding the power of our salvation.

Notice the first phrase below. This is an end-times problem.

2 Timothy 3:1-9
But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, [a]haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of [b]godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who [c]enter into households and captivate [d]weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the [e]knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as [f]Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.

In the verse above, we see people who have not changed their behavior. How is it they have the form of godliness and can be described this way (Rhetorical) ? There are many people who do not think that they have the power to become someone other than who they have always been. Being born again and being a new creation is not evident in their life. These people deny the power.

So, Why am i looking at the Goals of Daniel 9:24?
Because what Christ did changed our reality. The least of us is greater than John the Baptist. Why?
How does what Christ accomplished make this so? We have a list of what he accomplished in Daniel 9:24.
Whatever those things mean, they must result in our being able to have the power to not just have the form of godliness, but to be godly. And this somehow makes each of us greater than John the Baptist.

That is what I am pursuing in this topic.
I don't want to get bogged down with who is right and who is wrong.
I want to pursue the power available to us and to start I want to identify what Christ accomplished.

Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:26 am

keithareilly wrote:That is what I am pursuing in this topic. I don't want to get bogged down with who is right and who is wrong. I want to pursue the power available to us and to start I want to identify what Christ accomplished.

Such a great post Keith,
The part in blue in the quote above is One of the Reasons Why i believe the way i do regarding the 70th week and it's fulfillment.
I'm not sure i can discuss these goals without the inclusion of the 70th week topic. Why? Because the Answer to the Attainment of the "Power Available to us" is found in the following words....
Rev 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:17 am

shorttrib,

Include what you want. I won't debate whether the 70th week is finished.
More likely I am going to ask you, why, for what ever you think we must wait, is not available to us now.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:17 am

keithareilly wrote:More likely I am going to ask you, why, for what ever you think we must wait, is not available to us now


I have given you the Primary Reason why....

Because Our Now is not Yet This "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:"

The Other main reason is this.....
Eph 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


We've discussed this before....but how can you not agree that this Perfecting described has Not yet Occurred?

The timing of this Perfecting is still future, and it's God's work, and His Timing.


Very soon I think though

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:29 am

Shorttribber wrote ...

Because Our Now is not Yet This "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:"


Luke 10:17-20
17The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18And He said to them, “
I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19“Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20“Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”

I am not convinced the "Now" is still in the future.
Having Satan 'fall from Heaven like lightening' and no longer accusing us may be part of bringing in everlasting righteousness. Apparently this occurred during His visitation. Which is be consistent with accomplishing the goals during the 70 weeks. Notice the disciples were amazed with the power available to them 2000 years ago.

Shorttrib wrote
We've discussed this before....but how can you not agree that this Perfecting described has Not yet Occurred?


Just because we are not yet perfected in faith as a whole does not mean each of us individually cannot reach our individual perfection. We may not all get there at the same time.
To believe we cannot get there separately, one at a time, before we are there as a whole, might be to deny the power available to each of us individually. Hence the discussion.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:07 pm

Hi Keith,
The Lord Saw, as in the prophetic sense, satan Fall, yes. He Saw, satan' s Pride as the Cause OF That. That is what Christ was addressing...Not the Timing OF That Fall.

Yes, he has Given us Power to tread on the Enemy Now, but as of yet He has Not Given us, even individually, ALL Power to do so.
We can not completely Utilize even the Power we have at present individually, because we Need Each Other. We do not Stand or Fight this battle individually.

Do you notice the Battle armor includes the "Helmet of the HOPE of Salvation", not the Completion of Salvation (Deliverance) from our flesh Yet.
Yet, we Have This HOPE in us...and When God's Kingdom and Power becomes the NOW IN US, then That Complete Salvation, Individually and as the People of God Universal, will be Not a HOPE Only, but Actually Made Manifest IN US

Christ foresaw His Day IN The Saints at the Coming and Manifestation of His Kingdom as Told us in Rev12:10...That's what Christ was speaking of to His Disciples.
.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:23 pm

I wanted to add this small part also from text you gave in Luke...

keithareilly wrote: 19“Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.


Note, if this is NOW, and literally speaking in Every Sense, what can we say of the following part of it?
..............................."nothing will injure you"..................................

Nothing at all? We know he spoke in the Spiritual Sense of course, but Now, Many things Can Injure Us......in Particular, False Doctrine Right? As individuals and Corporately, False Doctrine Can and Does Injure Us.

Logically then he spoke of that Perfecting of the Saints when his Kingdom Does Come.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:07 pm

Shorttrib,
2 Timothy 3:1-9
But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, [a]haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of [b]godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who [c]enter into households and captivate [d]weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the [e]knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as [f]Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.

The verse above says in the last days people will deny the power of salvation, having only the form of godliness, while continuing in their sins.

John 8:31-36
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.


Christ says people who sin are slaves to sin. He also says if we know the truth, the truth will make us free. What He is saying is those of us who continue in his word will learn the truth and that truth shall make us free. Free of what? Free of sin and the slavery to it.

So, In the last days people will deny the power that makes us free of sin and continue being sinners as written in 2 Timothy 3:1-9. Today, we say everyone sins and this will continue until the day we die or Christ returns. We disavow any hope that we can be free of sin in our own lifetime on this planet. Consequently, we give up that helmet of hope of salvation, being free from sin in this life time, and allow sin to continue in our lives just as 2 Timothy 3:1-9 says those in the end of days shall do. We even argue that it is not possible to free of that sin until after Christ returns.

Christ, on the other hand, said If you continue in my word, you will know the truth and that truth will set you free of sin. He did not say when I return, He said when you know the truth. It is the truth that sets us free not Christ's return. That freedom is available to us here and now if we understand the truth. How do I know? Because Christ said so.


So, here we are in the last days doing exactly as 2 Timothy 3:1-9 says we shall do, denying the power that sets us free from sin; I don't want to be apart of that. I want the freedom Christ promised to those who understand the truth; and I want it in this lifetime as promised.

So please, lets pursue that truth that frees us from sin instead of continuing in our sins, denying the power of salvation, as it is written many shall do in the last days.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:36 pm

keithareilly wrote:Today, we say everyone sins and this will continue until the day we die or Christ returns.

....................We disavow any hope that we can be free of sin in our own lifetime on this planet.



.......We even argue that it is not possible to free of that sin until after Christ returns.




That's not what I say
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:43 pm

keithareilly wrote:That freedom is available to us here and now if we understand the truth. How do I know? Because Christ said so.


He also said that God would not forgive us if we do not forgive others, yet our Salvation is Not based on Our works.

Thus he says a Principle. Same with Absolute Freedom from Every Sin At THIS Hour.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:49 pm

shorttribber wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Today, we say everyone sins and this will continue until the day we die or Christ returns.

....................We disavow any hope that we can be free of sin in our own lifetime on this planet.

That's not what I say


I am glad you don't. It is why I am looking forward to more discussion with you in this thread.

Now, suppose Christ actually literally saw Satan fall like lightening from Heaven and that was what he was actually saying.

Acts 7:54-60
54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. 55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”


Steven Saw Christ standing at the right hand of God during his stoning. It was not a vision, he was gazing into heaven.

One of the things accomplished during the 70 weeks is: Satan, who is against us, always accusing us, has been removed from Heaven and Christ, our advocate, now stands at God's right hand advocating for us.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:50 pm

keithareilly wrote:Christ, on the other hand, said If you continue in my word, you will know the truth and that truth will set you free of sin. He did not say when I return, He said when you know the truth.

Do Know ALL Truth Yet? No, you don't. Note he said "IF" you continue in my word. As a Body and individually we do not do that FULLY and Completely at present.

We Know in Part don't we? Until what comes?
1 Cor 13
9 For we know
in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

That is describing Eph 4. and Rev 12:10
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:54 pm

Shorttrib wrote ...
He also said that God would not forgive us if we do not forgive others, yet our Salvation is Not based on Our works.

Faith without works is dead faith. Living faith results in works.

Thus he says a Principle. Same with Absolute Freedom from Every Sin At THIS Hour.

Not sure I understand this statement.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:56 pm

keithareilly wrote:One of the things accomplished during the 70 weeks is: Satan, who is against us, always accusing us, has been removed from Heaven and Christ, our advocate, now stands at God's right hand advocating for us.

Where is that in Daniel 9:24?

It does not say any thing of the sort
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:59 pm

Shorttrib,

Yes, I know we know in part. But, Christ did not say we need complete knowledge to be free, He said we need knowledge.

Knowledge is a personal thing, not a group thing. If person 'A' knows but person 'B' does not, person 'A' is free but not person 'B'.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:06 pm

shorttribber wrote:
keithareilly wrote:One of the things accomplished during the 70 weeks is: Satan, who is against us, always accusing us, has been removed from Heaven and Christ, our advocate, now stands at God's right hand advocating for us.

Where is that in Daniel 9:24?

It does not say any thing of the sort


Correct, it does not say that in Daniel 9:24.

As I said, Christ said He saw Satan fall like lightening. Christ said He saw this take place during His visitation, thus during the 70 weeks. After Christ was lifted up in the clouds (during the 70th week) he took His place at the right hand of God.

Therefore, During the 70 weeks, Satan was removed, and Christ, our advocate, took His place at the right hand of God.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:11 pm

keithareilly wrote:As I said, Christ said He saw Satan fall like lightening. Christ said He saw this take place during His visitation

I disagree with your timing. Jesus foresaw that event as occurring prophetically. It did not occur right then and there.
If that were the case, then the great tribulation also began right then and there, based on Rev12:10.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:29 pm

Shorttrib,

I know you don't agree. And we don't have to agree. But this is what I see.
I am not convinced all of Revelation Chapter 12 is future.
Revelation is revelation, it is about revealing, not necessarily all about the future.

Christ taught - The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand (now) nearly 2000 years ago.
Christ did not teach it will be coming sometime in the future. He taught it was at hand 2000 years ago.
Matthew 3:2New American Standard Bible (NASB)
2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven [a]is at hand.”

Revelation 12:10
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.


This verse in Revelation is saying the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
2 Timothy says in the end-time people will deny the power and will continue to sin.
If the people in the end times are denying the power of salvation, then the power of salvation is already available.

Think about it. When the owner of the vineyard turned the vineyard over to someone else, to whom did he turn the vineyard over? To the disciples, to the adopted sons and daughters, to the heirs, to royalty not tenants.


About Tribulation

Matthew 10:34 New American Standard Bible
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:04 pm

keithareilly wrote:Christ taught - The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand (now) nearly 2000 years ago.Christ did not teach it will be coming sometime in the future. He taught it was at hand 2000 years ago.

Yes, I do believe that the Kingdom of God Was Then present IN Christ, yep.

That's not a common thought though.....The Kingdom was present, During Christ's ministry and was Part of "That Day", the Day of the Lord, Back Then.
But, we see not all things put under His Feet............. Yet.

keithareilly wrote:2 Timothy says in the end-time people will deny the power and will continue to sin.If the people in the end times are denying the power of salvation, then the power of salvation is already available.

I agree that the Power of God Is Available to us.....and can be received or denied. That does not exclude the idea that More Power Is coming and Available, By God's choice and timing.
keithareilly wrote:About TribulationMatthew 10:34 New American Standard Bible "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

yes, I don't understand your point really....I know Great tribulation will be that.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:21 pm

Shorttrib,

John 18:36-37
36Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” 37Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”


So, His kingdom is not of this world. Christ is a King but not of this world.
He came to testify to the truth.

A Kingdom is a compound word meaning king's domain.
If the Spirit reigns within us instead of Sin, then we are the domain of the King who reigns in our flesh.
We are His real estate. Every flesh that becomes part of the domain of Christ grows His domain, His Kingdom.
This has been happening since Christ's visitation. The Kingdom of Heaven is still at hand today, else, we could not become His domain.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:05 pm

Revelation 12:1-5
12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
The Red Dragon, Satan
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.
The Male Child, Christ
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.


This section of Revelation 12 is historical. It occurred before Revelation was written.
We see that it is about Christ's birth, visitation, and ascendancy.

The question remains, how many of the subsequent verses are also historical?
Perhaps the one about Satan being removed from Heaven is also historical.
Just because it is written subsequent to these verses does not mean it occurs in time subsequent to the verses.
It could very well be a parallel event.

The following verse may in fact be simultaneous events to those recorded in verses 1-5.
Revelatin 12:7-10
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole [d]world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.


In other words, while Christ was here visiting, Satan waged war in Heaven and lost and was cast out and Christ saw it while He was still here. Because Christ records seeing this during His visitation, I think we are looking at something that has already happened. When Christ talked about his coming and the destruction of the temple, he talked about them as future events. He talked about seeing Satan fall as a current event not a future event.


Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:24 pm

keithareilly wrote:Revelation 12:1-5
keithareilly wrote:This section of Revelation 12 is historical. It occurred before Revelation was written.We see that it is about Christ's birth, visitation, and ascendancy.

keithareilly wrote:The question remains, how many of the subsequent verses are also historical?

ST wrote: One of them...the one you left out...vs 6.
That occurred in 70ad.
keithareilly wrote:In other words, while Christ was here visiting, Satan waged war in Heaven and lost and was cast out and Christ saw it while He was still here.

I understand your meaning, and it's reasonable....problem is, the verses that follow those (11-17) Immediately go in to match the Final 3.5.

2,000 years is not in agreement I don't think with the words "Short Time"

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:29 pm

Shorttrib,

I was editing my last post to add the following so I will add it here instead.

The real kicker that makes me think they are parallel events is that both events end with the woman being found in a place of sanctuary for 3.5 years.
Rev 12:6
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there [c]she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.


Rev 12:14
14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the [g]presence of the serpent.


I think these two events are the same event not two different events.
And I am not certain they are historical; maybe, but I don't know for certain.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:41 pm

keithareilly wrote:I was editing my last post to add the following so I will add it here instead.The real kicker that makes me think they are parallel events is that both events end with the woman being found in a place of sanctuary for 3.5 years.Rev 12:6

I didn't think I saw that the first time....thought maybe I missed it.
keithareilly wrote:I think these two events are the same event not two different events.

That's what a lot of people think....but only because it does not agree with their opinion. It does agree perfectly with shorttrib though.

keithareilly wrote:And I am not certain they are historical; maybe, but I don't know for certain.

Well, I do appreciate your honesty, but it is not at all complicated, from a shorttrib perspective.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:43 pm

gotta hit the sack early tonight...love ya brother...look forward to discussing more later
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:54 pm

keithareilly wrote:
shorttribber wrote:
keithareilly wrote:One of the things accomplished during the 70 weeks is: Satan, who is against us, always accusing us, has been removed from Heaven and Christ, our advocate, now stands at God's right hand advocating for us.

Where is that in Daniel 9:24?

It does not say any thing of the sort


Correct, it does not say that in Daniel 9:24.

As I said, Christ said He saw Satan fall like lightening. Christ said He saw this take place during His visitation, thus during the 70 weeks. After Christ was lifted up in the clouds (during the 70th week) he took His place at the right hand of God.

Therefore, During the 70 weeks, Satan was removed, and Christ, our advocate, took His place at the right hand of God.

Keith


Keith, your logic is a little astray with your above statement.

If Satan was thrown out of heaven as you have suggested during Christ's first advent, then as per Revelation 20:1-3, Satan was immediately thrown into the bottomless pit for the decreed period of 1,000 years to be release for a little while period when after his attempt to establish himself as a deity over the peoples of the earth, 1,000 or so years ago, he was then thrown into the Lake of Fire and the final judgement of all of the people then took place and the then judged righteous entered into eternity. I am only continuing your logic here Keith, because your understanding of scripture and teaching does not match what the actual scriptures teach. Satan has not yet been overcome in heaven and thrown down to the earth. That is still a near future event. Eternity, by your logic, did not begin 1,000 or so years ago. The beginning of eternity is still a distant future event.

Shalom
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:47 am

Jay Wrote ...
Keith, your logic is a little astray with your above statement.

If Satan was thrown out of heaven as you have suggested during Christ's first advent, then as per Revelation 20:1-3, Satan was immediately thrown into the bottomless pit for the decreed period of 1,000 years to be release for a little while period when after his attempt to establish himself as a deity over the peoples of the earth, 1,000 or so years ago, he was then thrown into the Lake of Fire and the final judgement of all of the people then took place and the then judged righteous entered into eternity. I am only continuing your logic here Keith, because your understanding of scripture and teaching does not match what the actual scriptures teach. Satan has not yet been overcome in heaven and thrown down to the earth. That is still a near future event. Eternity, by your logic, did not begin 1,000 or so years ago. The beginning of eternity is still a distant future event.


No, Jay, If Satan had/has time to pursue the woman, then later to pursue her children, then he was/will not immediately be thrown in the bottomless pit.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:55 am

Shorttrib,

I am not hard and fast about what I am proposing here. I am exploring the limitations of the scope of what happened during the 70 weeks. I am pushing the limits to determine where the scope ends to help determine what might apply to the goals and what should be ruled out. So, I am going to argue things that I might be completely wrong about just to see if they hold up or fall down. I expect to be able to identify things that are absolutes - definitely part of the goals, things that are maybe's - things that have not been confirmed but need to be or cannot be, and things that are "ain't know way" - things we can rule out for certain.

So, please be patient with me while I try and walk around the perimeter and isolate the scope of the 70 weeks goals.

That being said, tell me what logic rules out the parallel perspective and why the two 3.5 year periods should not be considered as the same event.

Thanks,

Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Exit40 on Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:53 am

keithareilly wrote:
Now, suppose Christ actually literally saw Satan fall like lightening from Heaven and that was what he was actually saying.

Acts 7:54-60
54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. 55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”


Steven Saw Christ standing at the right hand of God during his stoning. It was not a vision, he was gazing into heaven.

One of the things accomplished during the 70 weeks is: Satan, who is against us, always accusing us, has been removed from Heaven and Christ, our advocate, now stands at God's right hand advocating for us.


Hi Keith. Fast moving thread, I am trying to catch up but will start here. First of all, Steven did not actually 'see' into Heaven and the Throne Room with his eyes as no flesh can gaze upon the Glory of God. But he was full of the Holy Spirit though, and so was enabled by that to 'see the vision' of Heaven opened up in real time, and Jesus 'standing' at the right hand of God. Metaphorically, to fix one's mind on one, full of the Holy Spirit, Steven knows where he is about to go. He believes unto his 'death'. He knows he will not experience the 'second death', this important Principle being available to us all, in Christ.

I too believe satan has been thrown from Heaven. But I have some qualifiers to this though that may be hard to grasp. I believe Jesus, remember He, Jesus the fleshly Man, is full of the Holy Spirit too, from His Baptism on, so He can see this in real time, but He is also able to see into Eternity where it has already happened in the present, future, and past. See, there is no linear time in Eternity, so all can be seen at once. It's like being at a parade in time and one place, sitting on the curb watching the process of entries go by one at a time. This is our current linear realm, one of the 'waters' which I will get to in a bit. Another realm, 'waters', is to be in the air above the parade being able to see the whole process start to finish all at once. From there we can know the end from the beginning, being that far 'above' the whole parade.

So has satan been thrown to the earth ? No, He was thrown to the second Heaven, and is still the prince and power of the air where he walks about seeing whom he can devour. Plainly speaking, this is another dimension, one of those created as 'waters separated from waters', per the Creation account in Genesis. Why is satan thrown out of Heaven ? Because the accuser lost his case in front of the Judge, God Himself on the Throne in His Court, as by Christ's sacrifice, our Advocate in that Great court, we can be redeemed and made Perfect, in Christ alone, the only way to the Father. This has happened in time and Eternity, but remember Steven's vision is Christ 'standing', not taking His seat, where He continues to be our 'Witness' to our Father. I'm not sure if I fully understand this part myself, but I believe we know Christ is seated, as at the time of the end He arises to perform His final work here on our earthly dimension. Back to satan in the second Heaven, this is where the Spiritual war is being fought, and ultimately, in time, he and his minions lose the battle he wages on the Gates of the Third Heaven, which we know is a Kingdom. This is the Kingdom within us, the Power of which is, yes, available to us.

This Kingdom and the Power of Christ, having His mind, and full of the Holy Spirit, is available still, as a gift, 'if' we contend for the Faith 'once' given to the Saints.

Jde 1:3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

But there is a need for us to do something for the Salvation common to all of us, to contend for this Faith, but this Faith is dead without works. Works in this case is not hard labor, but rather a Labor of Love. Out of Love we do the Will of God, inside the Gift of Grace, through a greater Faith given to us to do. Through our Faith we want to do miracles too, to heal and to save, and further the Kingdom, out of Love. Because we Love Him that much, so great is our Faith, we will happily die for Him and His Kingdom, as He died for us. The Disciples saw Jesus performing miracles and want to do the same thing also.

Luk 17:5 ¶ And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

Here is how we do it.

Luk 17:6 ¶ And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
Luk 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
Luk 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Luk 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.


The servant is not greater than the Master. So consider what is not profitable to the servant.

Job 22:2 Can a man be profitable unto God, as he that is wise may be profitable unto himself?
Job 22:3 Is it any pleasure to the Almighty, that thou art righteous? or is it gain to him, that thou makest thy ways perfect?


I hope I am expressing my thoughts properly. This is open for discussion, and hopefully we can discover the mystery revealed in Scriptures.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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