Nephelim and The Watchers are back?

Events indicative of the end-times which may, or may not, be related to a specific Scripture.

Postby AndCanItBe on Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:53 pm

Genesis 6

1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.


Numbers 13

30 Then Caleb silenced the people before Moses and said, "We should go up and take possession of the land, for we can certainly do it."

31 But the men who had gone up with him said, "We can't attack those people; they are stronger than we are." 32 And they spread among the Israelites a bad report about the land they had explored. They said, "The land we explored devours those living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size. 33 We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:54 pm

:sheep:
Genesis 6:4 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

The King James Version has this word Nephilim as giants in both Numbers and Genesis.
And the sons of God in the Book of Job is definitely referring to the angelic hosts.

Of course God can raise men from the dead also as in the two witnesses, there is no reason to think these are angels, but do not know for sure. Would not care to say that without some further study or scriptures to back that up.

I know that very few are taught that this actually means the angels, but
there are some that still believe that.
Also in Jude 1:6, the angels which kept not their first estate
and in 2 Peter 2; God spared not the angels that sinned

Now I have a question if these angels referred to are the ones who rebelled with Satan why would God punish them and not punish Satan at the same time????
Anyway, I know that one of the reasons this is tough to believe is that it has not been routinely taught, but there are people who believe it.

Also, I believe Josephsus, says something about it but I cannot verify that or tell you where cause to be honest I never looked it up.

As I mentioned before, Paul also stated that women and men, should have a covering, because of the angels, in Corinthians.

Now all of the angels who followed in Satan's rebellion, did not do this intermixing, but 200 of them according to the Book of Enoch, did, and caused much trouble with man.

Of course I know the church does not consider the Book of Enoch, in the canon, but if the early church, including Jude can quote from it, then they must have known it.

Also the Book of Jasher, is mentioned in the Bible. Unfortunately a lot of this one has been used by Islam, and the Mormons and distorted somewhat.

But anyway. For you to consider praying and just asking the Lord to show you by His Holy Spirit if there be any truth to this, as in other things.

That is what I did when I first saw the scripture about the giants and wondered if that had anything to do with the old myths of great men of Greece, etc. Titans, etc. That was first what got me to studying it out.

Not to be contentious, but that is what my opinion is. I had to do the same thing with the rapture mid trib, thing cause that is what I was taught all my life in the Baptist church also. In Jesus love.
Now I am not to say that if the Lord shows me something else from the word, that I would change on this, but that is the way it would have to come to me.
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Postby ChurchGirl on Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:41 pm

The fact that their are giants in the bible is just cool, the whole back story of the Nephilim is intriguing...God's book is so awesome! :a3:

Goes to show that everything stems from the Bible. EVERYTHING stems from the word of God.
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:49 pm

AndCanItBe wrote:Genesis 6

1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.


Numbers 13

30 Then Caleb silenced the people before Moses and said, "We should go up and take possession of the land, for we can certainly do it."

31 But the men who had gone up with him said, "We can't attack those people; they are stronger than we are." 32 And they spread among the Israelites a bad report about the land they had explored. They said, "The land we explored devours those living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size. 33 We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."


Aye, but my itent was to point out that the Bible doesn't talk about Nephilim in the way that we mean it today. The Hebrew word means:

H5303
נפל נפיל
nephîyl nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.

uh...giant...not "freakish fallen angel who impregnates women"...
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
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Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
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Postby Lookfortruth on Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:09 am

Gen 6:4 There were1961 giants5303 in the earth776 in those1992 days;3117 and also1571 after310 that,3651 when834 the sons1121 of God430 came in935 unto413 the daughters1323 of men,120 and they bore3205 children to them, the same1992 became mighty men1368 which834 were of old,4480, 5769 men376 of renown.8034
________________________________________________________


H5303
נפל נפיל
nephîyl nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

H120
אדם
'âdâm
aw-dawm'
From H119; ruddy, that is, a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.): - X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.

H1368
גּבּר גּבּור
gibbôr gibbôr
ghib-bore', ghib-bore'
Intensive from the same as H1397; powerful; by implication warrior, tyrant: - champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant man.

H4480
מנּי מנּי מן
min minnîy minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.

H5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:18 am

beginning of the world...ancient....but I'm guessing you assume the "eternal" definition?
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
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Determine never to be idle. No person will have occasion to complain of the want of time who never loses any. It is wonderful how much may be done if we are always doing.
-Thomas Jefferson

Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
-Thomas Jefferson
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Postby Lookfortruth on Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:24 am

(beginning of the) world (+ without end).
always:
ever (-lasting, -more, of old)
perpetual,

Ancient is an interesting one, It is mentioned in the bible when describing God (ancient of days) and satan (the ancient serpent called the devil and satan) Clearly describing a meaning that implies an eternal being.
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:28 am

So...yes...you assume the "eternal" definition?
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
-Thomas Jefferson

Determine never to be idle. No person will have occasion to complain of the want of time who never loses any. It is wonderful how much may be done if we are always doing.
-Thomas Jefferson

Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
-Thomas Jefferson
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Postby Lookfortruth on Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:33 am

Bob, I am just reading the meanings as referenced. I figure if it is mentioned in the bible, it merits studying to understand the meaning. So far, it appears to be pretty clear that the offspring (Nephilim) were out of:

H4480
מנּי מנּי מן
min minnîy minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.


Eternal beings, but I am not finished with this study, and I will look at all aspects, and the beauty here as we can agree to disagree!
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:54 am

...I was referring to the very definition you provided...pointing out that the word doesn't ALWAYS mean "eternal" or "without beginning"...which btw angels are created beings and therefore have a beginning. They are not eternal.

So then....you assume the eternal definition? :cheeky:

(I can't believe how hard it can be to get a straight "yes" or "no" out of people sometimes)

EDIT: ...I don't believe in agreeing to disagree...one of us is wrong and the other is right. I'm convinced that I'm right, you are convinced that you are right. It is what it is.
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Determine never to be idle. No person will have occasion to complain of the want of time who never loses any. It is wonderful how much may be done if we are always doing.
-Thomas Jefferson

Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
-Thomas Jefferson
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Postby Lookfortruth on Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:02 am

If you disagree, and you know you are right, and I disagree and know I am right, then what else do we do but continue to disagree? :raspberry:
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:03 am

:sheep:
Bob as I can see you do truly study the word of God to find out what it truly means or you would not be where you are at with some of the doctrines and traditions you have found not to be true.

So just for once read in Genesis and then read in Job, where it says sons of God. Now for me the reason I feel this is important is that I do believe what the word of God says. In Corinithians when Paul mentions the angels, there has to be a reason.
That is the part when he is talking about a woman having the covering.
And then again, Paul makes it clear in Ephesians that we wrestle against spiritual wicknesses, powers and principalities.
Anyway, just to make this short. I think this is going to have a lot to do with the last day deception happening that is why it is important to me to study out.
Satan interfered with the seed of the woman to try to prevent Jesus from ever being born, when God told him what was going to happen.
So there was a reason for Satan to have his minions do this abominable thing to God, now Satan has not changed.
His desire is the same. I am not quite sure exactly how but I know God does want us to know
Also please remember that we know angels can interact with humans, as the word shows us. When they appeared to Abraham, they were as men, when they appeared to Lot they were men.
When they appeared anywhere they are always men.
No women angels ever mentioned in the word of god at all anywhere, right???
Some people think that the UFO thingy has to do with fallen angels returning, and the cloning etc, making all the weird animals again, etc.
I am still studying this one also.
Enoch says 200 angels sinned this way and have been locked up for 70 generations until judgement day.
Peter and Jude say the same thing.
So just be willing to ask for Holy Spirit guidance in discerning where the truth is. I believe we are in perilous times and things that have been taught wrongly for many years, God is calling His people to come back to Him and His Word. So just pray about it. I still think you have a lot of great wisdom in things that you have searched out diligently. Keep doing that.
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:08 am

:sheep:
Sorry for that triple posting, something happened with my computer and I did not think it posted.

Good grief. Well Bob I really was not trying to make the point that many times for sure.

This thing has been discussed in about three different places on the board.

There is only one truth, and of course, what I believe is that I know I have changed what I thought I knew a few times, myself. And probably will again as I study more.
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Postby Lookfortruth on Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:14 am

I still think you have a lot of great wisdom in things that you have searched out diligently. Keep doing that.

I believe I could say that very same thing for you Roma. :wink:
I am also having the very same sense of uncovering certain points in the word.
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Postby Lookfortruth on Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:17 am

I deleted two of them for you Roma :grin:
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uh oh they're breaking out them hebrew words now

Postby hoshianna on Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:46 am

Bob the Quiet wrote:
jesusphreak wrote:
YoungLion wrote:I can't seem to find the article, but I do feel differently... this is prophecy-related. Revelation speaks casually of angels flying through the sky and speaking audibly. Perhaps I shouldn't, but I take that quite literally. Now, so-called 'flying humanoids' -which I suspect are demonic beings- are being seen routinely in Mexico. Yeah, I think the Nephilim are coming back... and I would say that is a fulfillment of prophecy.


Where exactly does Biblical prophecy dictate that the Nephilim will return?


Where does the Bible talk about the Nephilim at all? All we have is the Bible referring to some people as the "sons of God" together with the assumption that the Bible never refers to men as such....

Luke 3:38
the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Gen 6:1-4 RV ACCDG TO BOB And it came to pass, when "THE SONS OF GOD" began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born unto "THE SONS OF GOD", (2) that the sons of God saw the daughters of "THE SONS OF GOD" that they were fair; and they took them wives of all that they chose.
Were humans homosexual who could procreate before? Was it only after sometime they found women attractive? Was it only after sometime that they became heterosexual and that God became displeased with this?
gen 6:3-4 ACCDG TO BOB And the LORD said, My spirit shall not strive with "THE SONS OF GOD" for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be an hundred and twenty years. (4) The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of "THE SONS OF GOD", and they bare children to them: the same were the mighty " SONS OF GOD" which were of old, "THE SONS OF GOD" of renown.
Bob, why the resistance to a doctrine with irrefutable scriptural basis?
Jud 1:6-7 RV And angels which kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication, and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:20 am

:sheep:
Thanks guys, I know for years I believed we could be raptured out of here any second and I prayed for it to come soon. Then someone mentioned to me that maybe it would not happen that way. I began to earnestly seek the truth from God's word and said prayerfully I only wanted to know what the word had to say not what others had to say. So now I am doing this with everything.
I started out with trying to discover where demons came from. Because I could not understand truly. Then that led me to a lot deeper study in these things. Like I said, if Enoch was good enough for the early church, it is good enough for me.
Also I do believe that I read it was one of the so called early church fathers, which I do not even like to call them that, cause I think that is from the RCC, anyway, their writings supplanted the thinking that the sons of God were angels.
Also, like I said a great deception is coming, and I also began to really pray earnestly that when the Lord returned he would find faith in me, if I am here. It really grieved my spirit, when I read that one where He said, but when I return, will I find faith on the earth???
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Postby mouserpg on Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:15 am

Were humans homosexual who could procreate before? Was it only after sometime they found women attractive? Was it only after sometime that they became heterosexual and that God became displeased with this?
No way! God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
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Postby Lookfortruth on Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:58 am

Roma said:
I started out with trying to discover where demons came from. Because I could not understand truly.

It is starting to make sense to me too. I have always been taught that the fallen Angels were demons. But then I read in Job, and it shows satan constantly moving between heaven and earth. The Nephilim however, had eternal spirits, from evil seeds of corrupt Angels. but they also die (because of the flesh part?). So it would stand to reason that when they die, their spirits will never ascend, so they will be eternal souls bound to earth.
Roma. Do you think that could be the reason God had to evacuate Adam and Eve from the garden after they sinned? He clearly states they must not take of the fruit of the tree of life lest they now become like God. Had they become eternal then, after sinning....they could never be reborn, and never resurrected? I am just now starting to study this aspect.
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Postby hoshianna on Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:57 pm

RomaLynnStar wrote::sheep:
It really grieved my spirit, when I read that one where He said, but when I return, will I find faith on the earth???
Luk 18:8 RV I say unto you, that he will avenge them speedily. Howbeit when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Why in the world would he go and say something like that? He almost sounds cryptic. You just got to wonder, don't you? :wink:
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:22 pm

:sheep:
Hi guys, watchful and I are going to be doing a little offboard study on this starting next week. My husband is on vacation this week so will start on it next weekend sometime, and I will get all my things together and share what I have come up with. Interestingly the septuagint, states the sons of god are angels and so does the companion bible.

Anyway the other aspect about finding faith on the earth, is something we should study out more thorougly also. Thanks

I will send you guys a pm with my email address if you want to join us, we are going to be chatting on msn through our hotmail addresses.
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Postby member x on Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:10 pm

hoshianna wrote:so sorry about that. I was just innocently breaking wind then, out of nowhere, this ball lightning ignited it. :oops:


i do that alot...that is breaking wind. :bag:
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Postby member x on Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:37 pm

Lookfortruth wrote:Roma said:
I started out with trying to discover where demons came from. Because I could not understand truly.

It is starting to make sense to me too. I have always been taught that the fallen Angels were demons. But then I read in Job, and it shows satan constantly moving between heaven and earth. The Nephilim however, had eternal spirits, from evil seeds of corrupt Angels. but they also die (because of the flesh part?). So it would stand to reason that when they die, their spirits will never ascend, so they will be eternal souls bound to earth.
Roma. Do you think that could be the reason God had to evacuate Adam and Eve from the garden after they sinned? He clearly states they must not take of the fruit of the tree of life lest they now become like God. Had they become eternal then, after sinning....they could never be reborn, and never resurrected? I am just now starting to study this aspect.


lookfortruth-

i have studied this in the past and it is interesting. the whole demon vs. fallen angel does make sense...

as for the evacuation from eden, i do not believe that is the reason. i think it is because of sin - and God does not dwell with sin. at the time they were banished, adam and eve had yet to have offspring.

unless you are suggesting this is something God knew in advance that would happen, hence he closed off the garden? either way you look at it, it was sin that caused it..
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Postby Lookfortruth on Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:50 pm

Member X, oh yes, it was sin, but I found it interesting that up until they sinned, they were free to eat of the tree of life, but before expulsion from the garden, a big concern of God, was that they be sealed out by a Cherub, and flaming swords, so they could not eat of the tree of life.....So he said they had sinned and receive curses, then God made a point of talking about the tree, and how it would make them as God's. I think there is a reason God puts that statement in the bible.
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Postby apfuchs on Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:08 pm

Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it. Hebrews 13:2


This is exactly one of the things I'm looking forward to when I get to Heaven, to have an angel come up to me, tap me on the shoulder and say, "Hey, remember me?"
Waiting for His coming,

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Postby Swayde on Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:34 am

Sons of God seems pretty straight forward to me. At least from a casual, non-Bible scholar glance.


Gen 6:2 That the sons1121 of God430 saw7200 (853) the daughters1323 of men120 that3588 they2007 were fair;2896 and they took3947 them wives802 of all4480, 3605 which834 they chose.977

Gen 6:4 There were1961 giants5303 in the earth776 in those1992 days;3117 and also1571 after310 that,3651 when834 the sons1121 of God430 came in935 unto413 the daughters1323 of men,120 and they bore3205 children to them, the same1992 became mighty men1368 which834 were of old,4480, 5769 men376 of renown.803

Job 1:6 Now there was1961 a day3117 when the sons1121 of God430 came935 to present themselves3320 before5921 the LORD,3068 and Satan7854 came935 also1571 among8432 them.

Job 2:1 Again there was1961 a day3117 when the sons1121 of God430 came935 to present themselves3320 before5921 the LORD,3068 and Satan7854 came935 also1571 among8432 them to present himself3320 before5921 the LORD.3068

Job 38:7 When the morning1242 stars3556 sang7442 together,3162 and all3605 the sons1121 of God430 shouted for joy?7321

Joh 1:12 But1161 as many as3745 received2983 him,846 to them846 gave1325 he power1849 to become1096 the sons5043 of God,2316 even to them that believe4100 on1519 his846 name:3686

Rom 8:14 For1063 as many as3745 are led71 by the Spirit4151 of God,2316 they3778 are1526 the sons5207 of God.2316

Rom 8:19 For1063 the3588 earnest expectation603 of the3588 creature2937 waiteth for553 the3588 manifestation602 of the3588 sons5207 of God.2316

Php 2:15 That2443 ye may be1096 blameless273 and2532 harmless,185 the sons5043 of God,2316 without rebuke,298 in1722 the midst3319 of a crooked4646 and2532 perverse1294 nation,1074 among1722 whom3739 ye shine5316 as5613 lights5458 in1722 the world;2889

1Jn 3:1 Behold,1492 what manner4217 of love26 the3588 Father3962 hath bestowed1325 upon us,2254 that2443 we should be called2564 the sons5043 of God:2316 therefore1223, 5124 the3588 world2889 knoweth1097 us2248 not,3756 because3754 it knew1097 him846 not.3756

1Jn 3:2 Beloved,27 now3568 are2070 we the sons5043 of God,2316 and2532 it doth not yet3768 appear5319 what5101 we shall be:2071 but1161 we know1492 that,3754 when1437 he shall appear,5319 we shall be2071 like3664 him;846 for3754 we shall see3700 him846 as2531 he is.2076


I used E-Sword for this, and did a search on sons of God. I used the KJV that includes the strong's numbers and definitions.

It seems pretty obvious to me that in the Old Testament the exact same wording is used in those verses. And based on the context it would definitely seem to be referring to angels.

In the New Testament however, they use different words and is clearly referring to humans (believes more specifically).

It seems very cut and dry and straightforward to me. Am I missing something?
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Postby member x on Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:30 am

Lookfortruth wrote:Member X, oh yes, it was sin, but I found it interesting that up until they sinned, they were free to eat of the tree of life, but before expulsion from the garden, a big concern of God, was that they be sealed out by a Cherub, and flaming swords, so they could not eat of the tree of life.....So he said they had sinned and receive curses, then God made a point of talking about the tree, and how it would make them as God's. I think there is a reason God puts that statement in the bible.


interesting. i have heard that the tree represents Jesus. adam and eve when asked by God did not repent, but played the blame game.

when we repent of our sins God is gracious with his forgiveness and provides us everlasting life.

anyway, just a thought.
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Postby Sword of Geddon on Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:19 am

Where can I find the book of enoch?
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Postby mouserpg on Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:20 am

Sword of Geddon wrote:Where can I find the book of enoch?
Apocrypha, I think. Be warned, though... it is not scripture.
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the book of enoch

Postby RomaLynnStar on Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:44 pm

:sheep: Just some input for those interested. As I stated before it is mentioned in the book of Jude. It is a very difficult read, especially the astronomical parts, maybe not for an astronomer however.

Comparatively the old testament itself for most people is a very tough read, especially some of the prophets.

There are three books of enoch, otherwise known as 1 Enoch, 2 Enoch, 3 Enoch

Fragments of 1Enoch were found in the Dead Sea Scroll collections at Qumran

2Enoch and 3 Enoch, are considered to be fakes.

1Enoch also referred to as the Ethiopic version. Apparently this book is part of the canon of the Ethioptic church.

The return of the long lost Book of Enoch to the modern western world is credited to the famous explorer James Bruce, who in 1773 returned from six years in Abyssinia with three Ethiopic copies of the lost book. In 1821 Richard Laurence published the first English translation. The famous R.H. Charles edition was published in 1912. In the following years several portions of the Greek text surfaced. Then with the discovery of cave 4 of the Dead Sea Scrolls, seven fragmentary copies of the Aramaic text were discovered

Second and Third Century "Church Fathers" like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the Book of Enoch. Tertullian (160-230 C.E) even called the Book of Enoch "Holy Scripture". The Ethiopic Church even added the Book of Enoch to its official canon. It was widely known and read the first three centuries after Christ. This and many other books became discredited after the Council of Laodicea. And being under ban of the authorities, afterwards it gradually passed out of circulation.
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Postby Ragnarok on Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:48 pm

Where can I find the book of enoch?
Apocrypha, I think. Be warned, though... it is not scripture.


Can you tell me which part does not agree with, coincide with, and confirm scripture?

Jud 1:14 - " And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints "

Here you go, Sword:
http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/eth ... index.html
Quid custodiet ipsos custodes
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:41 am

:sheep:

1 Enoch
1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be
2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come.
3 Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:

I have read through this book several times and I find nothing that does not agree with scripture. There are some things truly tough to digest at times, however there are some things like that in the Holy Bible.
Remember that for some reason the Ethioptic church did not go along with the Pope, and I will need to research that. But I for one, find that if they did not go along with the Pope business, they may have had more truth than the RCC people, huh?

Now when you read that statement up there, does that kinda give the pretrib rapture, secret removal thing kinda a bump in the road.
And I want you to look up the meaning of rapture, anyway. They say it means being caught up by the Lord.
But if you really look at it, it seems to be to say an emotional type of being caught up. But that is me. And my opinion of course.
I do beleve that God for sure did not leave his people without needful information when they left the garden.
And men were not dumb, grunting cavemen as I was taught in school.
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:50 am

:sheep:

rapture

Etymology: Latin raptus
1 : an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion
2 a : a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion b : a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things
3 often capitalized : the final assumption of Christians into heaven during the end-time according to Christian theology

Synonym ecstasy
Main Entry: ec·sta·sy
Pronunciation: 'ek-st&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -sies
Etymology: Middle English extasie, from Middle French, from Late Latin ecstasis, from Greek ekstasis, from existanai to derange, from ex- out + histanai to cause to stand -- more at EX-, STAND
1 a : a state of being beyond reason and self-control b archaic : SWOON
2 : a state of overwhelming emotion; especially : rapturous delight
3 : TRANCE; especially : a mystic or prophetic trance
4 often capitalized : a synthetic amphetamine analog C11H15NO2 used illicitly for its mood-enhancing and hallucinogenic properties -- called also MDMA
synonyms ECSTASY, RAPTURE, TRANSPORT mean intense exaltation of mind and feelings. ECSTASY and RAPTURE both suggest a state of trance or near immobility produced by an overpowering emotion. ECSTASY may apply to any strong emotion (as joy, fear, rage, adoration) <religious ecstasy>. RAPTURE usually implies intense bliss or beatitude <in speechless rapture>. TRANSPORT applies to any powerful emotion that lifts one out of oneself and usually provokes vehement expression or frenzied action <in a transport of rage>.

Ok the first time I looked that word up, I was horrified. I am one who really likes to know exactly what a word means and where it came from. Just like the bible versions out there.

Well for years I just believed what I had been taught in the Baptist church and never questioned it. Later when I got older and thought, well why didn't God have Paul use that word in the Bible if it was so important to believe???
Caught up in the air, or gathered to Him, certainly means something entirely different to me than this????
What about you guys?????
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Postby mouserpg on Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:55 am

2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed.


Last I checked, the "wicked and godless" were not removed in the tribulation. They continued to persist well after God poured out his wrath (AFTER the Tribulation). If I recall correctly, the wicked existed right up until judgement day.

Good to know that Enoch contradicts the bible in the first chapter. I wont be reading it.
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Postby mouserpg on Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:03 am

Ragnarok wrote:
Where can I find the book of enoch?
Apocrypha, I think. Be warned, though... it is not scripture.


Can you tell me which part does not agree with, coincide with, and confirm scripture?

Jud 1:14 - " And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints "

Here you go, Sword:
http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/eth ... index.html






http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read2/r00810.html
. . . Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. (NASB) Jude 1:14-15


. . . Behold, he will arrive with ten million of the holy ones in order to execute judgment upon all. He will destroy the wicked ones and censure all flesh on account of everything that they have done, that which the sinners and the wicked ones committed against him. - Enoch 1:9


Careful examination of the two passages reveals some significant differences. First, Jude refers to "thousands" of angels, but Enoch refers to "millions." Jude says that God will "convict" all of the ungodly, but Enoch says that they will be "destroyed." The rest of the two passages disagree in wording in minor ways. Therefore, it is inaccurate to conclude that Jude quoted Enoch. Since the book of Jude was written by Jude under the influence of God the Holy Spirit, we conclude that the book of Jude is truth. Therefore Enoch is wrong with regard to some facts.
The book of Enoch was never referred to by Jesus or any of the New Testament writers as scripture, and the book was not included in the New Testament by the apostles. It is commonly misunderstood that the content of the Bible evolved over time. But the New Testament clearly tells us that the apostles were identifying scripture as it was being written (1 Tim. 5:17-18; 2 Pet. 3:14-16). The New Testament books were being distributed by the apostles to the various churches to be read (Gal. 6:11; Col. 4:16; 1 Thess. 5:27; 2 Thess. 2:2; 3:14). By the time the apostles died, the New Testament had been written and its books were known. The Muratorian Fragment and several of the early fathers have left us a list of books that were identified as belonging to the New Testament. The book of Enoch was never included. Some books were challenged later but never with success.

Conclusion:You asked the question, "Why isn't this wonderful book included in the Bible?" The answer is that Jesus and the apostles never called it scripture. It is important to note that a few early church fathers highly valued the book of Enoch but they never referred to it as scripture. Therefore, we cannot view it as authorative since it is not the Word of God.
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Postby Downpour on Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:34 am

mouserpg wrote:
2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed.


Last I checked, the "wicked and godless" were not removed in the tribulation. They continued to persist well after God poured out his wrath (AFTER the Tribulation). If I recall correctly, the wicked existed right up until judgement day.

Good to know that Enoch contradicts the bible in the first chapter. I wont be reading it.


He is speaking of going through the tribulation, and when the wicked are removed are at the Lord's coming.

Matthew 13

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:17 am

:sheep:
It never ceases to amaze me how two people can read the same thing and understand two different things completely. Mostly because of the accepted perceptions they have from earlier teachings.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear

In, during the tribulation, wrath whatever, the wicked will be removed and the meek shall inherit the earth. It says we will be living in the time of the tribulation and the wicked will be removed, and the word is clear that the righteous will inherit the earth, not the wicked. The above scripture that you quoted clearly says the wicked will be removed.

If you want to misinterpret, go right ahead. You have already decided you did not want to read anything in the Book of Enoch, so don't use any of your twisted excuses.

No one forces anyone to do anything, you may believe whatever you want to. For those who choose to consider learning what the early church really believed, they have the right to check it out for themselves.
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:33 am

:sheep:
To Mouserpg
Translation of RH Charles
9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:



Translation of Richard Laurence:
1 Enoch Chp II
Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destory the wicked

I have no idea where you get your information regarding this passage, but neither translation has millions, check your sources, they are wrong. I have the Laurence one right here in front of me and the other is posted right on the web.

Also, to let you know, the early church used the septuagint, which is the old testament. The Book of Enoch was not a new testament book, it was a book that the jews already had and the early church certainly did have it and read it. It was referred to by Origen and several others.

It was not until the 4th century AD that it was taken out of the church.

Again, check your sources. I have no idea where you got your information. But it is not accurate on either count.

I did check your souce at Neverthirsty,
It does not tell you anything about who this page is written and researched by. Not one that I would count reliable, as I have just proven they are not.
Anyone can have a webpage and put anything on it.
This one gives no detail as to who they are, or what their credentials of study are from.
Last edited by RomaLynnStar on Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby mouserpg on Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:33 am

Twisted excuses? Heh, no need to attack me. Go read Revelations. Read what happens after the tribulation, and up until the end of the world. That's what I'm referring to. If you want to consider using non-scripture, remember this:

Galatians 5:7-9 (King James Version) wrote:7Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:47 am

:sheep:
Second and Third Century "Church Fathers" like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the Book of Enoch. Tertullian (160-230 C.E) even called the Book of Enoch "Holy Scripture". The Ethiopic Church even added the Book of Enoch to its official canon. It was widely known and read the first three centuries after Christ. This and many other books became discredited after the Council of Laodicea. And being under ban of the authorities, afterwards it gradually passed out of circulation

I did not attack you any more than you attacked me. I consider this a debate. My information, then is as good as yours. I have posted informaton showing exactly where the book came from.

I also showed you the correct quotes.

Unlike your source, who cannot even be identified, who misquoted the passage completely.

If the words of Enoch were good enough for the apostle Jude to quote, then it seems to be that he must have read it, and according to my study, he most certainly did. As did the four early leaders in the church, as cited above.

No one should enter a debate if they feel they are going to be attacked, when their versions or sources are called into question.

And as you know, most assuredly, within the church, many scriptures are interpreted different ways.

As you did when reading in the tribulation and assuming that did not include the beginning and end.

And no mention that I showed you that your source had misquoted the passage regarding the ten thousands of his saints????

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church
Distinctive traits

[edit] Biblical canon
The Canon of the Tewahedo Church is wider than for most other Christian groups. The Ethiopian "narrower" Old Testament Canon includes the books found in the Septuagint accepted by other Orthodox Christians, in addition to Enoch, Jubilees, 1 Esdras and 2 Esdras, 3 books of Maccabees, and Psalm 151. However, the three books of the Maccabees are identical in title only, and quite different in content from those of the other Christian churches which include them. The order of the other books is somewhat different from other groups', as well. The Church also has a somewhat ill-defined "broader canon" that includes more books. All modern printed bibles restrict themselves to the narrower canon.

I apologize if this above link is not inserted correctly, it seems somehow I have not gotten it correct as yet. Would you like to send your scripture quote from Galations to them, a church which has been around a whole lot longer than you or I???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Orthodox_Tewahedo_Church/
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Postby mouserpg on Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:08 am

My source may be wrong, or they edited the book of enoch to get rid of arguments against it. I haven't read the book of enoch for myself, because a little leaven leavens the whole lump. I do not consider anything outside of the Bible to be scripture.

As for the catholic 'church fathers', can I ask you a question... are you catholic?

Would you like to send your scripture quote from Galations to them, a church which has been around a whole lot longer than you or I???
Yes. Witchcraft has been around longer than Christianity, does that make it okay to be a wiccan?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_ ... edo_Church

"This Ethiopian icon shows St. George, the Crucifixion, and the Virgin Mary."

"The Chapel of the Tablet at the Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion allegedly houses the original Ark of the Covenant."

Sounds like a bunch of idolatry going on. Not only that, but it appears they enjoy adding to and taking away from the Bible, as evidenced by the apocrypha they enjoy quoting from. I'll have nothing to do with them, no matter how old they are.
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:34 am

:sheep:

No I am most certainly not Catholic. But you need to know that the first bishops did not consider themselves the so called church fathers, that came later on in the development and someone else began calling them that. It would be my assumption, but not clearly researched at this point, that this also came about with the Roman Catholicism.

As I pointed out to you, the early church had and read this book. It was not until the church became romanized in the 400s, with Augustine, who changed an interpretation that had been commonly held, until he decided to write the City of God, which was his speculation on what had happened in Genesis, that it was changed.

The world catholic means universal, or general. That being said, I think it was first used to indicate that all of the believers were considered as being together. Now the word is associated with the roman catholic church only.

And just because the Ethiopian, like the RCC have misinterpreted scripture to add in all of these things, does not mean they started out that way.

Look at the Protestant churches of today and tell me that they have not done the same thing. The majority of them have.

That does not mean that they did not start out on the right way. For some reason later in their organization they did start having a pope, but they first started out with bishops, which is biblical.

Again, I am not here to change your mind. I posted the correct information so that others who might be interested could see the misquotes.

No the book of Enoch has not been edited to change what was said. Your website researcher, whomever that was, was incorrect. I only wanted you to see that.

Like I said, from looking at that website I cannot tell who these people are at all. So when I do research, I certainly do want to know my sources. I understand your reasoning and I have absolutely no problem with that.

But if you want to be honest at this point in time, can we find very many of the churches, which seem to have stayed on the straight and narrow way?? They have all added their denominational, dogmas and changed some things to suit themselves.
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Re: uh oh they're breaking out them hebrew words now

Postby Bob the Quiet on Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:26 pm

hoshianna wrote:
Bob the Quiet wrote:
jesusphreak wrote:
YoungLion wrote:I can't seem to find the article, but I do feel differently... this is prophecy-related. Revelation speaks casually of angels flying through the sky and speaking audibly. Perhaps I shouldn't, but I take that quite literally. Now, so-called 'flying humanoids' -which I suspect are demonic beings- are being seen routinely in Mexico. Yeah, I think the Nephilim are coming back... and I would say that is a fulfillment of prophecy.


Where exactly does Biblical prophecy dictate that the Nephilim will return?


Where does the Bible talk about the Nephilim at all? All we have is the Bible referring to some people as the "sons of God" together with the assumption that the Bible never refers to men as such....

Luke 3:38
the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Gen 6:1-4 RV ACCDG TO BOB And it came to pass, when "THE SONS OF GOD" began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born unto "THE SONS OF GOD", (2) that the sons of God saw the daughters of "THE SONS OF GOD" that they were fair; and they took them wives of all that they chose.
Were humans homosexual who could procreate before? Was it only after sometime they found women attractive? Was it only after sometime that they became heterosexual and that God became displeased with this?
gen 6:3-4 ACCDG TO BOB And the LORD said, My spirit shall not strive with "THE SONS OF GOD" for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be an hundred and twenty years. (4) The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of "THE SONS OF GOD", and they bare children to them: the same were the mighty " SONS OF GOD" which were of old, "THE SONS OF GOD" of renown.
Bob, why the resistance to a doctrine with irrefutable scriptural basis?
Jud 1:6-7 RV And angels which kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication, and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.


And why do you expect me to give you an answer? Seeing that you no problem putting words in my mouth? Do you truly want to know what I think? Or do you prefer to mock me as you have just done?
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
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Determine never to be idle. No person will have occasion to complain of the want of time who never loses any. It is wonderful how much may be done if we are always doing.
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Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
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Postby ruotsher on Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:39 pm

RomaLynnStar wrote::sheep:

No I am most certainly not Catholic. But you need to know that the first bishops did not consider themselves the so called church fathers, that came later on in the development and someone else began calling them that. It would be my assumption, but not clearly researched at this point, that this also came about with the Roman Catholicism.

As I pointed out to you, the early church had and read this book. It was not until the church became romanized in the 400s, with Augustine, who changed an interpretation that had been commonly held, until he decided to write the City of God, which was his speculation on what had happened in Genesis, that it was changed.

The world catholic means universal, or general. That being said, I think it was first used to indicate that all of the believers were considered as being together. Now the word is associated with the roman catholic church only.

And just because the Ethiopian, like the RCC have misinterpreted scripture to add in all of these things, does not mean they started out that way.

Look at the Protestant churches of today and tell me that they have not done the same thing. The majority of them have.

That does not mean that they did not start out on the right way. For some reason later in their organization they did start having a pope, but they first started out with bishops, which is biblical.

Again, I am not here to change your mind. I posted the correct information so that others who might be interested could see the misquotes.

No the book of Enoch has not been edited to change what was said. Your website researcher, whomever that was, was incorrect. I only wanted you to see that.

Like I said, from looking at that website I cannot tell who these people are at all. So when I do research, I certainly do want to know my sources. I understand your reasoning and I have absolutely no problem with that.

But if you want to be honest at this point in time, can we find very many of the churches, which seem to have stayed on the straight and narrow way?? They have all added their denominational, dogmas and changed some things to suit themselves.



:banana: :a3:
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Re: uh oh they're breaking out them hebrew words now

Postby RomaLynnStar on Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:00 pm

Bob the Quiet wrote:
hoshianna wrote:
Bob the Quiet wrote:
jesusphreak wrote:
YoungLion wrote:I can't seem to find the article, but I do feel differently... this is prophecy-related. Revelation speaks casually of angels flying through the sky and speaking audibly. Perhaps I shouldn't, but I take that quite literally. Now, so-called 'flying humanoids' -which I suspect are demonic beings- are being seen routinely in Mexico. Yeah, I think the Nephilim are coming back... and I would say that is a fulfillment of prophecy.


Where exactly does Biblical prophecy dictate that the Nephilim will return?


Where does the Bible talk about the Nephilim at all? All we have is the Bible referring to some people as the "sons of God" together with the assumption that the Bible never refers to men as such....

Luke 3:38
the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Gen 6:1-4 RV ACCDG TO BOB And it came to pass, when "THE SONS OF GOD" began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born unto "THE SONS OF GOD", (2) that the sons of God saw the daughters of "THE SONS OF GOD" that they were fair; and they took them wives of all that they chose.
Were humans homosexual who could procreate before? Was it only after sometime they found women attractive? Was it only after sometime that they became heterosexual and that God became displeased with this?
gen 6:3-4 ACCDG TO BOB And the LORD said, My spirit shall not strive with "THE SONS OF GOD" for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be an hundred and twenty years. (4) The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of "THE SONS OF GOD", and they bare children to them: the same were the mighty " SONS OF GOD" which were of old, "THE SONS OF GOD" of renown.
Bob, why the resistance to a doctrine with irrefutable scriptural basis?
Jud 1:6-7 RV And angels which kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication, and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.


And why do you expect me to give you an answer? Seeing that you no problem putting words in my mouth? Do you truly want to know what I think? Or do you prefer to mock me as you have just done?


:sheep:

I really do not think anyone is trying to mock you or anyone else. Remember this forum does say bible study and debate, I think. Therefore if we get into discussions on this site, we should be able to stand, with love in Christ Jesus, when we do have disagreements. God alone knows all, we all know in part, as Paul has told us. And we are all still learning, as I do not think there is one person on this earth who fully knows everything at this time.
This could change as we get closer to the end, as God is pulling things together.
Anyway, I know you do not feel you can agree to disagree but there are times when that is what we have to do. It seems to me even Paul and Barnabus got into a disagreement over taking the disciple Mark on a trip. But I am sure that they did not break fellowship on this point.
So praying for all on this board that we will understand no one is mocking anyone that disagrees. Even when showing scripture references, as you know things are interpreted differently, but I have all confidence in my God and Saviour that He will make it right.

As I said, I really do not think anyone was trying to mock you or anything you said.
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Postby Ragnarok on Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:23 pm

mouserpg, you said you would not read Enoch, then you go on to argue it's validity using other people's interpretations ( at least THEY read it ) ...

I don't understand the logic behind that.
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Postby mouserpg on Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:55 pm

Ragnarok wrote:mouserpg, you said you would not read Enoch, then you go on to argue it's validity using other people's interpretations ( at least THEY read it ) ...

I don't understand the logic behind that.
That's not my intention. But if you want to encourage the reading of apocrypha, I'm against it.
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Postby ruotsher on Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:12 pm

If Enoch is good enough to be quoted in the scriptures, I am thinking it should be good enough for us to consider............
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Postby Operator on Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:07 pm

I just wonder why it was left out of the Bible then?
Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the desert and streams in the wasteland. Isaiah 43:18-19
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Postby ruotsher on Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:37 pm

I believe the catholic church had something to do with it........and the later ECF's.......
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