An e-mail from C. Peter Wagner, (Apostle-Prophet)

News about humankind's turning from God.

An e-mail from C. Peter Wagner, (Apostle-Prophet)

Postby BKF on Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:17 pm

C. Peter Wagner - President / Doris M. Wagner - Executive Vice President / Chuck D. Pierce - Harvest Watchman

May 31, 2007

Dear friends of Global Harvest:

Last month I sent you a report of the formation of our "Global Apostolic Network" (GAN) along with a graphic that contained seven boxes representing seven different units that have been joined to each other through my apostolic oversight. Just as a reminder, the seven units included The Hamilton Group, the U.S. Global Apostolic Prayer Network, the Apostolic Council for Educational Accountability, the International Coalition of Apostles, Wagner Leadership Institute, the International Society of Deliverance Ministers, and the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders.

I mentioned that things are moving rapidly. Well, as a starter we now have nine boxes instead of seven. The two additional boxes already existed, but they weren't included in the first version. They are:

Zion Apostolic Council. This is a wealth distribution infrastructure similar to The Hamilton Group. However, it is set up to handle the wealth generated by only one enterprise, namely the Zion Project founded by Rod Neal of Cincinnati, Ohio. Rod is very close to releasing some very innovative and disruptive technology which has the potential of making permanent changes in the lifestyle of the human race. He has asked me to form an apostolic council of 48 apostles who will be responsible for distributing the forthcoming wealth and also to serve them as Presiding Apostle.
Eagles Vision Apostolic Team (EVAT). For some time I had been receiving requests from certain apostles with whom I have built personal friendships to formalize my apostolic oversight and covenant relationships with them. I agreed to do this and establish EVAT in 2002, and we held our first annual meeting in 2003. Currently 25 EVAT members look to me for their primary or part of their primary apostolic covering. Their contributions (along with those of some Life Partners) cover my GHM salary and benefits.
GAN'S PHILOSOPHY OF MISSION

The other exciting development is that we now have, for the first time, the beginnings of a detailed and uniform philosophy of mission for the entire Global Apostolic Network (GAN). Heretofore I had simply assumed that, since I was the leader, we were all moving in the same general direction. That was largely true, but if someone had asked me I would not have been prepared to give them much detail as to the precise direction in which we were moving.

The major catalyst whom God has brought into the picture to help renew our minds in terms of our philosophy of mission is Lance Wallnau, founder of Lance Learning Group currently based in Rhode Island. Lance, in a former season, planted churches and formed an apostolic network which he has now turned over to other leadership. He is a member of ICA, and he currently travels widely as a conference speaker and as a consultant to business and government leaders. Through the years we have formed a close relationship, he has been a speaker at several of our conferences, and Lance is the newest member of EVAT.

Lance's trademark teaching relates to what he calls the seven "mind molders" or the "seven mountains." These have now become a permanent fixture in my personal teaching on taking dominion, and I have referenced Wallnau in The Church in the Workplace as well as in my forthcoming book Dominion! In my view it is not possible to get an operational handle on how to initiate corporate action toward social transformation without taking into account the seven mountains or what I like to call "molders of culture." The seven are religion, family, business, arts & entertainment, government, education, and media.
With this in mind, allow me to make an initial attempt to verbalize the philosophy of mission of GAN.

Our theological bedrock is what has been known as Dominion Theology. This means that our divine mandate is to do whatever is necessary, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to retake the dominion of God's creation which Adam forfeited to Satan in the Garden of Eden. It is nothing less than seeing God's kingdom coming and His will being done here on earth as it is in heaven. This includes the need to govern apolitically, as well as to embrace spiritual warfare techniques that neutralize the control of our adversary within the functional and territorial spheres of authority to which we have been assigned. To do this, we know that we must be in communion, we must receive revelation, and we must apostolically and prophetically proclaim that revelation.

First, our mission is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. We are an apostolic unit, and we read in Ephesians 4:11-12 that the stated responsibility of apostles (as well as prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers) is to equip the saints. We feel that we must equip the saints, not just clergy but all the saints of God both personally and corporately. However, the next question becomes: Equip the saints for what purpose?This leads into the second point, namely our goal. Our goal, in a word, is transformation. The first stage in this goal is personal transformation because each saint must be prepared to do his or her part in the process of taking dominion. Saints usually fall into one of three categories, depending on their primary focus. The majority of saints focus on self. They ask: What's in this for me? Ironically, the question applies to their religious lives as well as to their work and their leisure. A much smaller percentage of the saints focus on church. They are committed to their church, they tithe to their church, they volunteer for church programs, they attend faithfully, and they are fulfilled when their local church is healthy and is growing. A third category of saints, relatively very few indeed, manage to focus on the kingdom. They see the hand of God at work, not only in themselves and in their churches, but also in society in general. They are the ones through whom God will mostly accomplish His purposes of taking dominion. Our assignment, then, is to help as many people as possible move their primary focus from self or church to kingdom.
Which leads us to the second stage of the goal of transformation, namely corporate or social transformation. We want to see whole cities and regions and states and nations transformed to support the values of the kingdom of God. This will happen only as kingdom-focused saints become the head and not the tail of each of Lance Wallnau's seven mountains or molders of culture. Here in America, we have done fairly well in leading the religion mountain, but not the other six. Our mistaken tendency has been to try to pull leaders from the other six mountains over into our religion mountain instead of encouraging them to use their gifts and their energy and their knowledge in the mountain to which God has assigned them. We want all of God's people actively to do their part to fulfill the "7-M Mandate."

Thirdly, the measurement of our progress must center on renewal. Titus 3:5 says that we should constantly seek the renewal of the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit fills us and renews us day after day, we will be more able to tune into what He is saying to us and to the churches. We can measure how this is happening, both personally and corporately, by examining three stages:

Awareness. This is the renewing of our minds (Rom 12:2). It is a paradigm shift. It is agreeing with the dominion mandate.
Identification. This is the renewing of our commitment. We no longer are primarily committed either to self or to the church, but to the kingdom. We want to be a part of the current stream of what the Holy Spirit is doing.
Application. This is the renewing of our practice. It is what we do. Faith without works is dead. Not only do we want God's kingdom to come, but we are committed to take whatever action necessary to do our part to help see it happen.
If we agree that the "7-M Mandate" is operative within our Global Apostolic Network in general, then our specific involvement, whether it be with deliverance ministers or educators or prophets or workplace leaders or intercessors or philanthropists or apostles, will be guided by this same set of principles. Together we will more and more see God's kingdom come and His will being done here on earth as it is in heaven!

God bless you, each and every one.

Sincerely,

C. Peter Wagner
President, Global Harvest Ministries
Chancellor, Wagner Leadership Institute
P.O. Box 63060
Colorado Springs, CO 80962
719-262-9922
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Postby Lookfortruth on Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:20 pm

:whaa:
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Postby Salty Skipper on Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:23 pm

I started to pull a quote from that and add the faint emoticon, :faint: , but where do you start? That whole thing is cracked beyond belief.
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Postby BKF on Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:33 pm

Salty Skipper wrote:I started to pull a quote from that and add the faint emoticon, :faint: , but where do you start? That whole thing is cracked beyond belief.
I know, I started to do that too, but where do you start? The misapplication of scripture? The statements? How they demean those who don't follow their agenda? It's all way off.
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Postby David L on Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:54 pm

8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Matthew 24:8-13



Do you want to know who will deliver you up to tribulation? C. Peter Wagner's bunch just like the Calvinists who invented this doctrine of dominionism did to the true followers of Jesus after the Reformation did so will the modern day Dominionists follow in their footsteps. There's another thread here where I believe one of these dominionists says something about forcing the non-domionists to join them or eliminating them from the picture altogether.

The love of many will grow cold? The greek word in (v.13) is agape which is the unconditional love that God has for man. The world or to be specific the natural man cannot agape. Agape is only possible once a man has been born again. The reference to the love of many is a reference to the love of many in the body of Christ will grow cold. They will fall away in pursuit of their lusts having been seduced by false prophets who will stir hatred up within them against their own brethren.
Last edited by David L on Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Vintage Ticking on Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:02 pm

Do you want to know who will deliver you up to tribulation? C. Peter Wagner's bunch just like the Calvinists who invented this doctrine of dominionism did to the true followers of Jesus after the Reformation did so will the modern day Dominionists follow in their footsteps. There's another thread here where I believe one of these dominionists says something about forcing the non-domionists to join them or eliminating them from the picture altogether.


A la Joyners war between the blues and the grays, and Warrens elimination of resitors who won't go with the programme?

I've believed for years now that this is coming.
If my life were important,
I would ask, will I live or die?
But I know the answers lie
far from this world ...
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Postby Salty Skipper on Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:05 pm

This whole dominionism thing is something that I knew nothing about until the past year or so. It's stranger than fiction, to say the least.
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Postby kids on Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:56 pm

I don't know anything about this theology, but a church we use to go to taught this:

Lance's trademark teaching relates to what he calls the seven "mind molders" or the "seven mountains." These have now become a permanent fixture in my personal teaching on taking dominion, and I have referenced Wallnau in The Church in the Workplace as well as in my forthcoming book Dominion! In my view it is not possible to get an operational handle on how to initiate corporate action toward social transformation without taking into account the seven mountains or what I like to call "molders of culture." The seven are religion, family, business, arts & entertainment, government, education, and media.

I had no idea :shock:

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Postby mouserpg on Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:28 pm

If he's an apostle, I'm elvis.
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Postby AChildsHeart on Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:30 pm

Excuse my ignorance... But all of this domionism talk stuff is complete greek to me :roll:

It sounds like a whole bunch of garbily gook talk that really doesn't make a lot of sense. Where can I find the Black and Yellow book of Domionism for Dummies?? :dizzy:
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Postby BKF on Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:40 pm

I heard someone explain it like this; Ask one of these apostles “how do you know you are an apostle”? The response from them is “because a prophet confirmed that me it is so”. But the apostles told them they were prophets, and so the story goes. They are ever confirming each others status, all the while “deceiving and being deceived”.
This same person said this, There was a farmer who claimed he has a $3000 dog, when asked “How do you know it’s worth $3000? The farmer replied “Because I traded two $1500 cats for it”.
He is funny when he tells it, but I trust you get the point.

Nice to meet you Elvis. :mrgreen:
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Postby David L on Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:26 pm

AChildsHeart wrote:Excuse my ignorance... But all of this domionism talk stuff is complete greek to me :roll:

It sounds like a whole bunch of garbily gook talk that really doesn't make a lot of sense. Where can I find the Black and Yellow book of Domionism for Dummies?? :dizzy:


Dominion theology is also known as Kingdom Now theology and is closely related to Replacement Theology. It origins are in Protestant Reformed Theology, specifically, that of John Calvin which is often dubbed Calvinism. More specifically this type of Calvinism is often called hyper-calvinism because of it's extreme unbiblical approach to the scriptures.

It essentially seeks to establish God's Kingdom on the earth now by political or radical activism. It's very popular in Charismatic and Pentecostal movements in the U.S. and the U.K. that denies the rapture. Some have gone as far to say that the rapture of Elijah was judgment from God because Elijah was negative and still others say the rapture is a lie of the devil.


Herescope

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Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:07 am

kids wrote:I don't know anything about this theology, but a church we use to go to taught this:


Wow, Nancy! Good this you don't attend that church anymore!
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Postby yhudit32548 on Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:22 am

Amen ,well said David L.!! G-d's WORD is true. Many,many false teachers and when we warn people (christians) not many will heed the warning. But like Jeremiah,"Tell them anyway". When I go out to the wilderness in my area(Eglin afb has 90,000 acres of a wildlife reserve) I have the ability too notice what a deadly snake is in comparing with what is not.
So it is with the WORD of G-d!!!

Those who drink milk have NO discernment. Only those who can "EAT"
the Word of G-d can have the ability of discernment...Amen Blessed be HIS NAME. Phillipians chapter 1.


Shalom
ADONAI ROI (LORD is my Shepherd)
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Postby Passion on Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:17 pm

David L wrote:[color=red]8
12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

The love of many will grow cold? The greek word in (v.13) is [i]agape
which is the unconditional love that God has for man. The world or to be specific the natural man cannot agape. Agape is only possible once a man has been born again. The reference to the love of many is a reference to the love of many in the body of Christ will grow cold. They will fall away in pursuit of their lusts having been seduced by false prophets who will stir hatred up within them against their own brethren.



:shock: Not having done an in-depth study of that passage yet, I didn't know the word agape was used there! And now that I know, it makes perfect sense to me--even if you wouldn't have explained everything so well (which you did), because only last Sun. I learned during our pastor's sermon (he's going through the book of Luke) that the word agape wasn't invented until Jesus came on the scene, because the other Greek words for love that they had been using just didn't come close enough to the kind of love Christ showed, and taught His disciples about. So our pastor said something similar to what you just said, David--although he didn't take the thought quite as far.

Thank you for putting it into perspective for me. Now it has clicked to the point that I may have the answer to an age-old question that has been plaguing me (and zilllions of Believers) for years. :eek:
"But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation. My God will hear me. Do not rejoice over me, O my enemy. Though I fall I will rise; Though I dwell in darkness, the Lord is a light for me."

--Mica 7:7-8


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Postby Passion on Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:19 pm

AChildsHeart wrote:Excuse my ignorance... But all of this domionism talk stuff is complete greek to me :roll:

It sounds like a whole bunch of garbily gook talk that really doesn't make a lot of sense. Where can I find the Black and Yellow book of Domionism for Dummies?? :dizzy:


You can also read Holly's blog, on the upper right-hand corner of the FP homepage. She does an excellent job of educating us on this heresy! :wink:
"But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation. My God will hear me. Do not rejoice over me, O my enemy. Though I fall I will rise; Though I dwell in darkness, the Lord is a light for me."

--Mica 7:7-8


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Alright Alright

Postby Joe4Gzus on Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:39 pm

Alright I've seen enough of this. David L you are blanketing Calvinists as if they were Satan himself. Why don't you show us a thorough refutation of Calvinism from the Scriptures (all 5 points, 7 for some), not against the people themselves, but the doctrines, and then I won't just feel so upset at your blanket statements with no Biblical correction evident. I'm no Calvinist, but I certainly believe in Predestination and the Sovreign election of God. That is so blatent in Scriptures. (As long as you have no preconceived "I GET TO CHOOSE!!" bias, to which then most people will ignore Scriptures that don't fit their bias.)
I've never seen anyone so adimantly against Calvinism, to the point of sounding hateful. Calvin might have had some things wrong (replacement theology being one of them, I feel), but who are you to judge your brother? (a Scriptural question, mind you) Unless of course you've already made up your mind that Calvin and the rest of the calvinists in the world aren't Christians. You should be VERY wary of calling ANYTHING Satan without good Biblical exegetical support. Why? Because the Jews called Jesus Satan (essentially) when they said He did His miracles by the power of Satan. And that was Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Let your Yes be Yes and No be No, and be very careful what you call Satan. Be very sure. How would you all feel if I decided to say "free will in salvation" was of Satan? You'd all say "now that's not very loving, that doesn't mean they're not Christian etc etc.!" Doctrine is critical, the utmost in fact, but who are you to judge one of lesser (or more) faith?

To this point in time I have not seen your refutation of Calvinism from Scripture, and since you seem so against it, you must have your reasons, and I'd like to see them.

Hyper Calvinism on the other hand is ridiculous as can be, and I won't argue that. Dominion Theology is equally as theologically messed up, that letter being a good proof text.

However, maybe 3/5 or 4/5 or 5/5 of the points of Calvinism are correct theologically, and you wouldn't know, would you? Not until you let go of your bias and investigated the Scriptures prayerfully (have you done this? really, be honest! I won't judge you, I am guilty of it too). Do you think you are doctrinally perfect? You sound like Darwin Fish sometimes, from "atruechurch" (any one here remember them, huh?). Be CAREFUL brother. Have you actually studied the majority of what Calvinism teaches? An honest question, not meant to be hurtful.

If anyone thinks they are right about something, be sure of it in faith, and PROVE IT with Scripture. Blanket statements just make you look...well, lazy (I say this is jest).

Thank you

Love, Joe[/i]
"Whoever claims to be in Him <b>must</b> walk as <b>Jesus did</b>." <i>1 John 2:6</i>
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Postby Joe4Gzus on Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:43 pm

ALso, David L, I would like to learn what you know about what 'Calvinism started', namely Dominion Theology, because I have never heard this before in all my studies. Maybe you know something I do not. If Calvin started the push for all of this 'modern day apostles' and 'we gotta take over the world for Jesus and THEN let Him come back' junk, I want to know. Because that stuff is deadly poision.

Joe
"Whoever claims to be in Him <b>must</b> walk as <b>Jesus did</b>." <i>1 John 2:6</i>
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Please don't flame me

Postby JFaron on Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:31 am

I am looking for the love of our Lord Jesus Christ here and honestly I just don't see it. I agree that these teachings seem to be in error, I just don't see any scriptural support at all for these claims. I just don't see all the flaming as doing any good in shedding the love of the Lord into anyone's heart.

Peter put it in far better words than I could ever utter:

1Pe 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to {the} {will of} God.
1Pe 4:7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober {spirit} for the purpose of prayer.
1Pe 4:8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
1Pe 4:9 Be hospitable to one another without complaint.
1Pe 4:10 As each one has received a {special} gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1Pe 4:11 Whoever speaks, {is to do so} as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves {is to do} {so} as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;
1Pe 4:13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.
1Pe 4:14 If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.
1Pe 4:15 Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler;
1Pe 4:16 but if {anyone suffers} as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.
1Pe 4:17 For {it is} time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if {it} {begins} with us first, what {will be} the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?
1Pe 4:19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

Oh, Lord thanks for the gift you have given us here. Man do I miss Herb and his gentle insight.

Again, this one as written by our long sleeping Brother Mathew:

Mat 7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
Mat 7:2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

I have my own Logs in my eye.

We are worthy to judge nobody, we don't get to say who goes to Heaven or hell. I do not state we cannot say to be weary of a teaching or a doctrine, but to say it is of Satan? I just don't know about that, I am open to correction, if properly supported by scripture here.

The War was won a long time ago on the cross by our Lord Jesus Christ!!! We are just on a recruiting mission, spreading the Gospel News. That is the way I see it anyways.

With Love for you all, because it was commanded of me, and I am obedient, humbly,

JFaron aka Alan J. Hanson

:armor:
And this is the Cornerstone of My Faith:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
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Postby bchandler on Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:13 am

It is intersting that they have so many things right.... but then jump off the cliff of bringing about a litteral kingdom on this earth, when Jesus clearly told us his kingdom was not of this earth, otherwise his servants would fight.

Hmmm... If Jesus kingdom and dominion is of this earth and his servants will do WHATEVER is necessary... this sends us down the slippery slope where everything and anything is justified in order to achieve the goal of an earthly kingdom.

This is exactly why the Jews to this day reject Jessus as messiah... because they were looking for an earthly kingdom prophecied within the Davidic covenant, and ignoring the spiritual kingdom prophecied by all of God's prophets.

To the Jews, if he didn't fulfill the Davidic covenant he can't be messiah. It is only when they come to understand that the prophecy shows us that the Davidic covenant is fulfilled when he returns with the armies of heaven to translate his kindom from spiritual, to both spiritual and physical, that the blinders fall off.

This kind of dominion approach is extremely dangerous... it is the approach that caused the RCC to exterminate 10's and possibly 100's of millions of Christians during its lifetime.

This kind of approach is what allowed the nazi's to flourish and bring in their new-age concepts and rule by divine right mentality.

This kind of thinking is what sits behind the KKK today... where they believe they are a superior race and the Jews carry a blood taint, and colored people bear the mark of Cain.

Most of us see that for what it is... patent nonsense! Most of us see the extremes and can recognize the extreemes when we see them...

My concern is that these "so called" apostles are placing many in the church on the slippery slope that leads to these extreemes... and the people have failed to recognize it, because of its subtle and seductive nature.

IMO, no one has the right to be called an apostle, until they:

    1. Daily are healing the sick
    2. Daily are casting out demons
    3. Have raised at least 1 person from the dead
    4. Impart the gift of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands
    5. Do all things in the name of Jesus
    6. Seek no profit from their ministry
    7. Work to make their living and support themselves in a chosen trade as they travel to where they are called to minister.


Of course if you want to be really technical.. they must also have been an eye witness to the ministry, death, resurrection, and ascention of Jesus.

That last qualification of course eliminates all but about 500 people who ever lived, but I would be willing to accept as an apostle anyone who met the 7 criteria we found in the original 12 apostles.
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Postby First Love on Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:57 am

I believe the Bible. If Calvin got some points correct, then good for him. But it doesn't make me calivinst because I believe the same thing from Gods word.
I don't need 5 or 7 or whatever points. If it makes one feel more holy, or closer to the Lord to be a calvinist, what ever that is, then go for it. But
I for one never understood why you need someone elses name attached to a belief that is in the Bible. I don't go for that and will never be a part of what some man has attached his name to.
Color me just a plain ole Bible Believing Christian. I believe all of it, even what I don't understand.
When I was 8 years of age the Holy Spirit knocked at my hearts door. I then and there professed by faith that Jesus died for me, rose again and by His blood my sins are covered. That is so simple, yet where do all these other things come from? Surely not the Word of God.
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Postby Joe4Gzus on Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:25 am

JFaron-- a good post indeed. Were you agreeing with me? We need love among us. Without love, no one can see that we are Jesus' disciples. Without love, we do not know God.

We CAN judge doctrine by the Word of God, and we're required to test ourselves to see if we're in the faith. We're also told we can know a true tree (disciple of Christ) by their fruit. I will not sit on Jesus' throne and judge someone in to hell, but if I can't make a judgement on their current spiritual state, how can I know whether to speak to them about the Gospel, to train them, or to rebuke them? Keep wary of this "never judge anyone" attitude that has crept in. Judgement is necessary. Judgement to HELL is never necessary. Ever. See the difference? Let me show you two Scriptures.

The first one you've already posted, speaking of hypocritical judgement, Matt 7:1-5. This is not the same as this judgement:

Hebr.5:14 "But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil."

This word "distinguish" is "diakrisis" which means "a distinguishing, discerning, judging" and comes from the root "krino" which is used as "judge" in Matt 7.

So what's the difference? It's in the context. One is hypocritical judgement, which is condemned. The other is a mandate to be mature and judge between what is GOOD (like doctrine) or EVIL (like bad doctrine). And if it is false doctrine, well let's be logical...It's Heresy. It leads people away from the true Way. Would false doctrine be from Satan?

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" Gal.1:8

I'm sure you'll agree here. Even though it might look nice and from the Holy Spirit, just remember Satan and his lackeys masquerade as angels of light. We have to judge to discern good from evil. And the same goes for those who claim to be branches that bear good fruit. We must judge that to determine the veracity of that statement. That is one of our jobs. Don't neglect it.
--------------------------
First Love,

Like I said, I'm not a Calvinist. I believe whatever the Bible plainly states. I also think it's tacky to refer to yourself as anything but "Christian" but that's just me. Many disagree. I believe the name "Christian" is holy, per 1 Peter 4:16. What I was speaking against was blanket condemning an entire group of people to hell (seemingly) based on a disagreement with their doctrine (this in itself would not be wrong, say if the group were...Muslims or Mormons), but without any PROOF from Scripture that they are of Satan. If you're just going to make a statement like that, back it up. That's why we need to be very careful who/what we discern to be of Satan and of God.

You said
If it makes one feel more holy, or closer to the Lord to be a calvinist, what ever that is, then go for it.


This worries me. I might be misunderstanding you, but that seems very 'relative' to me. Truth is Truth, there are not gradients of it. We shouldn't do something that could be wrong just because it makes us feel closer to God. Where's that in the Bible? God has warned against following our hearts, or what we think is good for us, or our relationship with Him.

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." Prov 14:12

"All a man's ways seem right to him, but the LORD weighs the heart."
Prov.21:12

And finally Jer.17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?"

Let us not trust our hearts then, instead, store the Word of God in there so that out of the abundance of it in our hearts, our mouths speak it, and our actions are a light. Yes, let's trust God's Word. If what we're believing is wrong, do not harden your heart to God's correction from His Word. If our hearts have trapped us in sin, and we are truly a legitimate child of God, then God will discipline us and bring us back to Him (Heb. 12). I hope you understand what I'm saying.

In love,

Joe
"Whoever claims to be in Him <b>must</b> walk as <b>Jesus did</b>." <i>1 John 2:6</i>
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Postby bugtussle on Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:18 pm

I almost cannot believe the arrogance and ignorance in Wagner's letter.
I stand by the Word of God. Follow the money trail. The LOVE of MONEY is the ROOT of ALL EVIL.

1 Timothy 6:9-11
9But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

After these, in verse 12 we are admonished to fight the good fight of FAITH.[/b]
For the Lord is good and His love endures forever. His mercy will never fail. Amen.
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Postby bugtussle on Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:20 pm

Lance's trademark teaching relates to what he calls the seven "mind molders" or the "seven mountains." These have now become a permanent fixture in my personal teaching on taking dominion, and I have referenced Wallnau in The Church in the Workplace as well as in my forthcoming book Dominion! In my view it is not possible to get an operational handle on how to initiate corporate action toward social transformation without taking into account the seven mountains or what I like to call "molders of culture." The seven are religion, family, business, arts & entertainment, government, education, and media.


:puke:
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Postby bugtussle on Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Here in America, we have done fairly well in leading the religion mountain, but not the other six. Our mistaken tendency has been to try to pull leaders from the other six mountains over into our religion mountain instead of encouraging them to use their gifts and their energy and their knowledge in the mountain to which God has assigned them. We want all of God's people actively to do their part to fulfill the "7-M Mandate."


It sounds alot like a pyramid scheme to me with Wagner at the top.
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Postby JFaron on Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:40 am

Joe4Gzus,

I was specifically referring to this part of your post, "I will not sit on Jesus' throne and judge someone in to hell". It isn't our place, right or however you want to word it. I absolutely agree with you there. I also know we are not to:

Mat 7:6 "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

So we have to use discernment or practice good judgement in sharing our witness. But everyone has to see Christ through us or what is the meaning of the Great Commandment?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

These two portions of scripture have always perplexed me somewhat, I believe (not being a prophet or an apostle) that we need to always in all things have the Lords Glory in front of us or primary in our hearts and minds in ALL things. Especially in what we say and do out here in the fallen world we live in. The lost sheep of mankind look at us and judge the Lord by what we do. That is a tough but real perception they have. Sometimes though we just have to do nothing but pray and you all know what I mean by that, or I hope you do. I have been faced in my life with difficult choices of what to do for a substance abuser (drugs/alcohol) who is homeless and suffering from the downward spiral of their addiction. Sometimes the Holy Spirit moves me to do nothing other than pray. These individuals have to hit a rock hard bottom for the Lord to be able to reach their hearts. How far did Pharaoh have to go to finally let the Lord's people go out of bondage in Egypt? Even after he let them go, he still tried to grab back control of the situation resulting in the end of the lives of his soldiers as the sea came crashing in on them. So I pray for the individuals and I ask them to be willing to pray for God to reveal Himself to them, I try to get them to shelters where they can start on a path of physical recovery, but I no longer enable their behavior by either allowing them to live in my home or giving them money. This is tough, but it is love. Later I share the Gospel with them if they are willing to listen. A young man who I witnessed to over the course of two years has finally accepted the Son of God as his personal Lord and Savior. Another young man who I still witness to of the Gospel just can't get past the fact that Jesus is the only way, he says that he accepts the Lord but also says that Jesus is not the only way, still falling for the we can fix ourselves delusion. Both these men could use our prayer and I ask all of you to pray for both of them. They are both dear to my heart the lost man and the saved man. I can't wait till the Lord comes back and takes our sin nature away from us, wipes every tear from our eyes, and welcomes us into his reign here on earth and takes us to the new earth and the new heaven eventually. In the meantime I do my best to carry out those last passages of a true Apostle, Matthew, the Great Commandment. Joe4Gzus, I don't know if this answers all of your questions, I sure hope it does, however, know this, I believe Jesus our Lord will answer them all, and I promise you a big hug after this is all over, if I don't see you sooner I WILL see you later. After all the Lord did say He went to prepare a place for us.

Humbly your brother in Christ,

JFaron aka Alan J. Hanson

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John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
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Postby Joe4Gzus on Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:08 pm

Thanks JF for your reply. I've been on vacation so I haven't checked stuff much.

Your answer gave me a better understanding of your heart. I just was only trying to caution against premature judgement of the 'eternal' degree. If you start saying this denomination andthat denomination are going to hell, where do we stop? You know? You end up turning in to a "Church of Christ" like "denomination" (no offense CoC people) who say all other denominations except "theirs" (they don't think they are one) are evil and wrong and hellworthy. So I just say be careful.

The Lord's Spirit in us gives us the ability to discern all things, and so let's put it to good use. Let's never judge anyone to hell though, how can we? Let's just do our jobs and warn. Okay well, thanks for the reply, and I'll see you on the otherside one day!


Your Friend,
Joe
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Postby JFaron on Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:33 am

That'll be a true party brother!!

:banana: :banana: :banana:

Can't wait to see the Lord Jesus, Herb, you, and so many other brothers and sisters in Christ from my life!!!

JFaron aka Alan J. Hanson

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John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
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Postby mightymac on Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:41 pm

It essentially seeks to establish God's Kingdom on the earth now by political or radical activism.


Were'nt there groups in Jesus' time that were looking for the Messiah to do that too?
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Postby water on Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:34 pm

mightymac wrote:
It essentially seeks to establish God's Kingdom on the earth now by political or radical activism.


Were'nt there groups in Jesus' time that were looking for the Messiah to do that too?


There still are today...they believe the Messiah will come to establish an Earthly kingdom...they believe the Messiah will not be divine.
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Postby David L on Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:23 am

Fan mail?


Joe4Gzus wrote:Alright I've seen enough of this. David L you are blanketing Calvinists as if they were Satan himself.


Show me where I have stated anywhere on this board that Calvinists = Satanists. That is a false accusation. I am convinced that the teaching they follow which may have been inspired by God eventually would go astray as the Reformers would return to the 'great St. Augustine' and not the New Testament. Any Reformer will tell you that they hold dear to the teachings of their dear St. Augustine.

Why don't you show us a thorough refutation of Calvinism from the Scriptures (all 5 points, 7 for some), not against the people themselves, but the doctrines, and then I won't just feel so upset at your blanket statements with no Biblical correction evident.


And this will prove what again? Oh, yea that I know what I am talking about. Let me ask you a question. Will a refutation of Calvinism change how you perceive it and what you believe about it? If the answer is no then I am wasting your time and my own time..

I'm no Calvinist, but I certainly believe in Predestination and the Sovreign election of God. That is so blatent in Scriptures. (As long as you have no preconceived "I GET TO CHOOSE!!" bias, to which then most people will ignore Scriptures that don't fit their bias.)


That has nothing to do with Calvinism. Predestination isn't even the issue I have with Calvinism. It is the spin that is put on predestination which in turn redefines what predestination means scripturally. I know I am predestined. This confrontation we are having was predestined but it wasn't God who caused you to be mad with me; rather you responded on your own accord to what you believe to be a misunderstanding of a said doctrine for what ever reasons you have already stated. I admit you could say the reverse of what I have said and argue for it as well but it is just an argument.

I still can't understand why you are so upset with me if you are not a Calvinist, yet I perceive that you believe some of if not much of their doctrine? At what point is someone not a Calvinist? And how do you define Calvinism?

A black calvinist (that is what HE calls himself) once said that Calvinism has absolutely nothing to do with nor is it defined by the TULIP. In fact, his definition is that Calvinism is defined as 'Reformed Theology' and so Reformed Theology is Calvinism. Furthermore, Reformed Theology is not Calvinism but is true biblical theology. In other words if your theology is not Reformed Theology then you have the WRONG theology. That is what a true Calvinist really is and the others on the board with him seemed to believe as he did. (it was somewhat of a Reformed board) So even the Calvinists who you are so adamently defending would say that you're just as wrong as I am!! How funny is that? The irony, Oh, how it pierces my heart...

Is that your view of Calvinism Joe?


I've never seen anyone so adimantly against Calvinism, to the point of sounding hateful.


Sounding hateful? I'll make it clear for you. I HATE CALVINISM.

I love Calvinists. In fact, one of my dearest sisters on this board (I wont say her name) is a CALVINIST. hahaha. I love her like my own soul and can talk openly with her about anything! We have the same view on Eternal Security, more or less, with her leaning more towards the impossibility of one falling away - which I am fine with - but I certainly do not believe that she is in league with Satan.

Calvinists are my brothers and I love them even though I believe they have many things wrong theologically and eschatologically. I was actually a bit of a Calvinist to an extent myself until I investigated it further, at which point, I completely rejected it on the basis of scripture alone (having not heard of Jacob Arminius or Armenianism up to that point).

Calvin might have had some things wrong (replacement theology being one of them, I feel),


By virtue of the fact that he had somethings wrong how can you then know that anything he says is right? Furthermore, the Roman Catholic church has some things right also. Are you going to defend Rome as well? Your argument is invalidated by your own logic. BTW, mention the words 'Replacement Theology' around a true Calvinist and you will instigate a wrath like you have not seen before. It is an insult to tell a Calvinist that Covenant Theology is 'Replacement Theology' which only further convinces me that you do not know any more about Calvinism than I do.

but who are you to judge your brother? (a Scriptural question, mind you)


You cannot be serious. Have you not judged me already by your own words? How self contradicting. Nevertheless your words are nullified by the Word of God..

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints?

Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge?

I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 1 Corinthians 6:1-6



Unless of course you've already made up your mind that Calvin and the rest of the calvinists in the world aren't Christians.


Again, another foolish assumption of yours. Is that what you do? Make a false assumption about someone and build an argument from it?

You should be VERY wary of calling ANYTHING Satan without good Biblical exegetical support.


Show me where I have done that anywhere on this board. Also, what do you define as 'good exegetical support'?? Reformed hermeneutics? Covenant Theology? Is that 'good exegetical support'?

If it is not inspired by the Holy Spirit than who's spirit is behind it's inspiration? Is it not the god of this world, Satan? The father of all false doctrine and false religions? And you're mad at me for recognizing that if doctrine is not inspired by the Holy Spirit that it is from Satan?

Why? Because the Jews called Jesus Satan (essentially) when they said He did His miracles by the power of Satan. And that was Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Let your Yes be Yes and No be No, and be very careful what you call Satan.


Are you saying that Calvinism is doctrinally inspired by the Holy Spirit? If so then why do you reject some of it? Also, if Calvinism is not ALL inspired by the Holy Spirit than who inspired it to be written and taught?

I look forward to your response here.

Be very sure. How would you all feel if I decided to say "free will in salvation" was of Satan? You'd all say "now that's not very loving, that doesn't mean they're not Christian etc etc.!"


Again, putting words in my mouth. You have absolutely no idea what I would say. What makes you think that I would respond with such a weak excuse for not knowing the scriptures?

In fact, Calvinists DO SAY that 'free will' is a doctrine of Satan so this further shows your own lack of knowledge about our reformed brethren. That is exactly what a true Calvinists would say about any non-Reformed hermeneutical approach to the scripture. Covenant theology is the foundation of what is called Calvinism. All other forms of interpretation of scripture are thus renounces as heretical or not biblical.


Doctrine is critical, the utmost in fact, but who are you to judge one of lesser (or more) faith?


Again, I have stated already that it is the very doctrine you yourself proclaim to be 'critical' that I judge as it is directly commanded by scripture. see 1 Corinthians 6:1-6

To this point in time I have not seen your refutation of Calvinism from Scripture, and since you seem so against it, you must have your reasons, and I'd like to see them.


I wish I had the time to sit down and refute all of Calvinism but that requires more time than I have at this time. Furthermore, I have so much more to study and learn about Reformed Theology in general since there is so much more to it than what some would call 'Calvinism'. Most people would say that Calvinism is defined by the TULIP but I have already stated from my Calvinist brethren's own mouth that it is MUCH MORE than the TULIP. In fact, they reject the other 2 points as heretical.


Calvinism vs Arminianism


I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminianist. The above link summarizes very briefly where I stand more or less on the issue. Feel free to PM if you want any more details but bare with me since I don't have the freedom to spend endless hours on the internet.

Hyper Calvinism on the other hand is ridiculous as can be, and I won't argue that. Dominion Theology is equally as theologically messed up, that letter being a good proof text.


Well, the Calvinists I know believe in infant baptism, reject futurism and prophecy (they believe all was fulfilled in 70 AD), and thus the only option left is Amillenialism or Post-Millenialism which is the door mat for Kingdom Now/Dominionism theology. You can't just pick and choose with the Calvinists - you either believe all of it or reject all of it. At least that's what they say to me...

However, maybe 3/5 or 4/5 or 5/5 of the points of Calvinism are correct theologically, and you wouldn't know, would you?


Well, you wouldn't know that either would you? Who are you to assume what I do know and what I dont know? Are you not showing your own ignorance and bias by assuming that I am an idiot who is babbling about things I do not know about? Where is the wisdom in how you have approached me about this whole matter from your opening statements? I have yet to see it...

Not until you let go of your bias and investigated the Scriptures prayerfully (have you done this? really, be honest! I won't judge you, I am guilty of it too). Do you think you are doctrinally perfect? You sound like Darwin Fish sometimes, from "atruechurch" (any one here remember them, huh?). Be CAREFUL brother. Have you actually studied the majority of what Calvinism teaches? An honest question, not meant to be hurtful.


What an insult. Darwin Fish? Not only do you insult me but you insult your own intelligence or lack of it by making such a foolish statement without any text to back it up. I dare you to back up this slander of yours openly before the board so our brethren can judge between you and me. You know absolutely nothing about me nor history as a member of this board. Furthermore, you know even less about Darwin Fish if you are putting me in the same boat with the likes of such a person.


If anyone thinks they are right about something, be sure of it in faith, and PROVE IT with Scripture. Blanket statements just make you look...well, lazy (I say this is jest).

Thank you

Love, Joe[/i]


You would be wise to take your own advice, you can start with your response. I've seen your posts and you are a wise man so why have you responded to me so foolishly? This doesn't fit well with the Joe I've seen in the bible study and debate section. This is disappointing to say the least. I believe you can do much better than this because you are a man of God.



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Postby Salty Skipper on Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:33 am

I'm not sure why we focus on labels like "calvinism" and "reformed theology."

Whatever happened to reading the scriptures like they are written, being careful to keep them in context?

I don't think it's a bad thing to study those doctrines, but the titles surely do lend themselves to generalizations and blanket statements by anyone arguing either for or against the doctrines.

Just observing...let's keep it civil.
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Postby David L on Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:47 am

This is more like it. We can get somewhere talking to each other like this without all the hostility.


Joe4Gzus wrote:ALso, David L, I would like to learn what you know about what 'Calvinism started', namely Dominion Theology, because I have never heard this before in all my studies. Maybe you know something I do not. If Calvin started the push for all of this 'modern day apostles' and 'we gotta take over the world for Jesus and THEN let Him come back' junk, I want to know. Because that stuff is deadly poision.

Joe


Dominion theology is not necessarily the Apostolic and Prophetic Reformation that we know. The APR is largely Charismatic/Pentecostal which is confusing since biblical Pentecostalism doesn't teach Kingdom Now, a Post Millenial doctrine, but rather is Pre-Millenial in it's approach to the scripture.

If someones pneumatology or understanding of the Holy Spirit is incorrect than so will their eschatology be tainted or blinded because of this misunderstanding of the person of the Holy Spirit. Today, Pentecostals don't really have any theologians among them like they did back in the 50's and 60's when the Assemblies of God were for the most part still very biblical in their doctrine. Since they have no theology of their own they had to get it else where and turned to the Calvinists or Reformed Theology to get some kind of theological approach to scriptures.

Most Pentecostal pastors today are not pastors but hirelings [John 10]. Jesus said that a hireling flees when Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Rick Joyner, and company come along. A hireling does not care for the sheep but the good sheppard comes in the character of Jesus and lays his life down for the sheep. He slays the wolves (with the Word of God the sWord of the Spirit) and thus protects the sheep from the wolves. Jesus of course is our good sheppard but we all have a pastor who's job is to protect us from the wolves. This includes false doctrine.

Now, to understand Dominionism we have to go back further in history all the way back to Augustine. Augustine is the theological father of what we know today as Roman Catholicism as well as Reformed Theology. The Reformers did not go completely back to the bible but rather went back to the root of the problem, Augustine of Hippo. There was an urgency to preserve unity within the church and so Augustine called for the Council of Nicea which began what is known as Erastianism. The result of all of this being that political dominion could now be exercised by civil authorities over the church. Hence, the term dominionism.

Augustine was influenced before that by a man named Ambrose of Milan (I think) who believed that the church should control political authority over the state. This is why Calvin would later develop his own police state in Geneva where his secret police would carry out many injustices against fellow Christians. His followers would later persecute a people who were known as the Anabaptists for wanting to be baptized according to scripture as opposed to infant baptism. Yes, Calvinists believe in infant baptism. Like I said, there are different shades and not all Calvinists believe in infant baptist but John Calvin did so how can you be a Calvinist and not believe in infant baptism?

Anyway, the roots of Dominionism are traced back to Ambrose of Milan, who influenced Augustine, who was and is adored by the Catholic Church to this day, who would influence the Protestant Reformation (don't forget the Reformers were Catholic monks), who 4 centuries later would influence todays Pentecostals and Charismatics which is why we have our foolish brethren today trying to establish God's kingdom here on earth.

They believe that Jesus CANT come back until they have conquered the earth in His named and subdued all of God's enemies. Notice how God isn't doing any of the work. The bible says 'the Lord of glory will trample Satan under His feet' but that verse must not be in there bible.

Uh, sorry for the rough summary. I am on my lunch break and don't have time to look up the scripture but feel free to PM me or whatever. Eventually, I hope to clean up my posts with more scripture to support it. I gotta get something to eat, spiritually, and physically..
Last edited by David L on Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Salty Skipper on Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:09 pm

Uh, sorry for the rough summary. I am on my lunch break and don't have time to look up the scripture but feel free to PM me or whatever. Eventually, I hope to clean up my posts with more scripture to support it. I gotta get something to eat, spiritually, and physically..


David, the bolded portion of your statement here is so simple, yet profound on different levels. I'm still sitting here thinking about it. It's a lesson, in an of itself. :grin:
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Postby BKF on Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:19 pm

Darwin Fish.Image
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Postby Passion on Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:29 pm

:laugh:

:fightfish:
"But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation. My God will hear me. Do not rejoice over me, O my enemy. Though I fall I will rise; Though I dwell in darkness, the Lord is a light for me."

--Mica 7:7-8


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Postby Joe4Gzus on Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:54 pm

I know BKF, Darwin Fish, right? Now THAT'S a website to practice your discernment on. Heh.

David, thanks for replying, I'm glad I still kept checking up on this thread. Thanks for the quick overview, I'll look in to it more. But yes, feel free to continue to elaborate, because if what you say is true, historically speaking, then it's very interesting. One question came to mind though. Were you trying to say that the reformers, the original protestants, were incorrect in their theology and were NOT trying to follow the Bible only (Sola Scriptura)? Because much of their writings indicate otherwise. If the reformation is false, then where does that leave all of us? And do you think Reformed Theology is incorrect? I see NO dominionism in RT at all, but that's just me. And I also saw that the likes of Luther and Calvin etc DID in fact do infant Baptism, however they did not see it at all in the same way as the Catholics did and still do. To this day many protestants baptize their children as a pledge before God to raise their children in the Lord, and not as a means of salvation like the Catholics do. And this to me seems to be a stylistic thing, if a protestant did this, a preference really, not doctrine. Just some questions. Like I said, feel free to elaborate. Use Scripture to support theological points and doctrine, and if you wouldn't mind, when speaking of historical events, could you provide me with a source so I can investigate further? I like being pointed in the right direction. Thanks alot David.

In Christ,

Joe
"Whoever claims to be in Him <b>must</b> walk as <b>Jesus did</b>." <i>1 John 2:6</i>
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APOLOGY TO DAVID L ET AL...

Postby Joe4Gzus on Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:05 pm

I'm really glad I only saw your second reply first David. I just went all the way to the bottom, totally missed your scathing rebuke of me. I have to admit honestly, if I had seen that first, my first reply wouldn't have sounded so oblivious and unrebuked. But I feel God led me to reply quickly to your second post in a civil manner so that when I finally did see your first rebuke, and that's basically what it was, I'd have the grace to accept the fact that I had NO idea what I was talking about and I was WAY out of line, and sinning.

I saw repeatedly you corrected me for assuming who you are and what you'd say. Now while I feel you must have misinterpreted what I was saying a few times, and that a few times I was speaking to all of FP as a whole and not you David, still, I was very rash and I typed all of that out of anger. I went and reread your first post and realized that I was only angry at what you said because I made it say what I wanted it to say. I for some reason felt you were making an attack on a belief system that you didn't bother showing where it was wrong. That just set me off, something must have been going through my mind, I really have no clue. You said that was uncharacteristic of me to respond so haphazardly like so. I'm pretty appalled at myself after rereading my post. But you're wrong, it's not uncharacteristic of me, that WAS me. That was ME coming through, my evil nature, and not the light of Christ. It was MY flesh, and I hope it didn't cost me a friend. So I'm sorry David.

I'll help clear up some of the animosity between us, if there was any. Also I'd like to say sorry to the mods and FP that it got out of hand like that, it's my fault, I'll take the blame.

First you have to understand a few things about me I guess, the short story. I grew up Roman Catholic, rejected that, and turned to a psuedo athiesm outlook (still believing in God but saying I was an athiest haha) as I got older I had no interest in any thing 'religious'. I joined the Air Force, and I got saved!! I have no idea how, it's like God revealed Christ in me one day and there you have it. But boy did I stay and infant for a while. Years later I ended up in a Bible study based upon individual discipleship, discipline in reading/studying the Bible for yourself, fellowship, and the great commission, among other things. I had NO theological background. No 'growing up in Christianity' bias, none of 'the culture' of modern day Christianity in America (it's out there, you know haha -sigh-). I was essentially fresh meat for God, not to say growing up in a Christian home is bad at all! My children are to be raised in a Christian home, in obedience to the Scripture. So anyways I didn't grow up learning anything about what Calvinism or Arminianism was, reformed this or that. Nada. All I had was a Bible and the Holy Spirit. I didn't start looking in to all these things until after I had read through the Bible once and was firmly established in reading it day and night, and doing personal Bible studies each week (chapter by chapter, verse by verse, cross referencing, I think it works well). It was recommended to me to do this, and it really paid off in the end. I didn't develop views based on books ABOUT the Bible (why not just go to the Bible itself, right?), it was just me and the Teacher. It really helped a lot!

Now, you asked me if 'that' was my view on calvinism, and since I was trying to defend calvinists (I don't know why I chose to do this), would I defend Catholics as well? And I guess you could ask if I would defend Mormons, JW, Branch Davidians etc... . My answer is no, I wouldn't, because I don't see those as Christian. But to be honest, I have no clue why I decided to take up arms to defend a theological position I don't follow nor that I am very knowledgable in either. I think I showed that enough, to my shame! Haha. I don't have a 'view' on calvinism really. What I am meaning to say is, I read my Bible plainly, and believe what it says. If that falls in to someone's denominational branch, or theological standpoint from the past, then so be it.

About 'judging your brothers'.....we were obviously thinking of two totally different scenarios. I do not disagree with what you wrote at all concerning 1 Cor 6:1-6 (considering it is the Word, how could I?) I believe in discernment, and judging between good and evil (Heb 5:14), this including doctrine, and the fruits of believers. I think I made this clear on other posts in this thread, so I won't go in to detail. I was thinking more along the lines of Romans 14 and accepting him who's faith is not strong. I totally misread you, so I'm sorry. My argument pretty much had no basis other than misunderstanding you. Boy does that make a good argument huh? Makes for an easy rebuke, that's for sure. Thank you for that.

About saying you reminded me of Darwin Fish...

Yeah, that was way out of line. I'm so sorry. I had created an image of you in my head when I made that post, and eventually it 'evolved' (haha) in to a Darwin Fish type of character. I type casted you. I don't know anything about you, so I have no right. God has used all of this to humble me, as I don't recall ever being so arrogant and mean and HYPOCRITICAL on a thread before, and I'm glad He did.

Hmm..you wrote alot so it's hard for me to pick out what points to talk on. You're right, you never called anything Satan, but I didn't say you did, I just felt like you were 'essentially' saying that Calvinism was from Satan. At the time at least. Then my argument changed in to a broad reminder of being careful never to call anything Satanic without knowing for sure by the Word. That part was not directed at you. I really didn't type that post well at all, apologies to all.

Is that what you do? Make a false assumption about someone and build an argument from it?


I guess so. That's exactly what I did, thank you for catching it. I really should have known better. I really should have. But like I said, God allowed me to REALLY mess up this time, and take the rebuke from my brother, as to humble me, and it's my responsibility for the sin. So good on you.

And you're mad at me for recognizing that if doctrine is not inspired by the Holy Spirit that it is from Satan?


No. Not at all. Good job. I'm insane I guess. Really. It's like reading another persons post when I look back on it. If I were you, I would have handled me in the same way David. Once again, I'm very sorry.

Why? Because the Jews called Jesus Satan (essentially) when they said He did His miracles by the power of Satan. And that was Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Let your Yes be Yes and No be No, and be very careful what you call Satan.


Are you saying that Calvinism is doctrinally inspired by the Holy Spirit? If so then why do you reject some of it? Also, if Calvinism is not ALL inspired by the Holy Spirit than who inspired it to be written and taught?


God help me trying to explain this foul up... Let's see. I think what I was hinting at is we should never be to hasty to call a "Christian" the opposite, which is a child of Satan. Because saying that a true Christian is of Satan, would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit that is in that Christian. So we have to be careful, and prayerful, and judge objectively by the Word. I hope that helps explain. I WOULD NEVER think a theological system (of man) is divine in origin, other than the revealed Word of God. That's the other thing I learned while growing up (and still growing) in my salvation, was never to trust man, or his ideas, or traditions. Never trust anything unless it agrees with the Word. I'm firm in this, and I'm sorry if I came across otherwise in my ridiculous post.

It's funny how you mentioned you're somewhere in between Calvinism and Armenianism. A long while ago, when I found out what both of these were, I realized I was in the same position as you are. I understand Predestination and the concept of Free will. But I do not see in the Scriptures that there is free will in salvation. I believe Salvation is God's choice, and not mans, a decision made before the foundation of the world, that seems plainly stated in Scripture. But I believe the regenerate have the ability the choose to obey or disobey God, a free will, given to them by God. And the unregenerate, read: 'all of fallen humanity', including myself at one point, could not choose to obey God (rom 3), we were bound to the flesh and satan, given over to our sinful nature by God. Then, those called to be redeemed, are redeemed and given the Gift of Eternal life. If this falls in line with someone's dogma from the 15th or 16th century, oh well. Like I said, this is just what I've gathered basically from a fresh reading of the Bible many many times over with no previous bias. I'd be willing to talk with you about this over email or what have you, and see what you've got on the matter. If I'm not open to correction, then I'm as false as how Darwin Fish acts.

The Calvinists I know are not at all preterists, and do not reject futurism. So I guess there's a lot of branches of them huh? Didn't know that.

And I think we can both know if any of the theological points of Calvinism are wrong Scripturally. And yes, there was NO wisdom in how I approached you in the matter, I admit this freely. I hope you will see the Wisdom of God in me from my other posts, and future posts and correspondence. I showed no wisdom however, in the post to you. I thank you for not casting me totally aside as a completely hypocritical child, which I think some might have, and I probably deserved it too.

I can't believe I made that Darwin Fish comment, please forgive me. I'm rereading my post. It's shameful. :cry:

I really should have taken my own advice in the last sentence I wrote, but I didn't, and now you all can see the result! I hope I can be a lesson to everyone who reads this thread.

My apologies to you David once again.

Peace be with you,

Joe
"Whoever claims to be in Him <b>must</b> walk as <b>Jesus did</b>." <i>1 John 2:6</i>
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Postby Salty Skipper on Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:41 pm

Gotta love watching the Holy Spirit at work. :grin:
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:44 am

:a3: Salty
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:35 am

Of course if you want to be really technical.. they must also have been an eye witness to the ministry, death, resurrection, and ascention of Jesus.

That last qualification of course eliminates all but about 500 people who ever lived, but I would be willing to accept as an apostle anyone who met the 7 criteria we found in the original 12 apostles.


That was just really something I read again last night and it was clear to me.
1 Cor 15:5-9
And that he was buried and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures, and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve. After that, he as seen above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain unto this present but some are fallen asleep, ater thate he was seen of James; then all of the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.


Okay what I think I am getting to here is that there are not any other apostles than the ones we already have from the scriptures. So anyone who comes along and says he is an apostle and I have to believe what he says, no way do I believe it. And remember, with the other criteria, they have all sorts of things they say that they do, but never seem to have valid proof, so would not even go by that at this time.
I feel the same way about prophets, I think we have all the prophets in the scripture. There were some who helped with the building of the church at the beginning, but I do not see that they, since the word has been written for us, we have the writings of the apostles and prophets, anyway I know some may disagree.
I do believe we still have teaching and all the other things, but the written word now has all that the apostles and prophets taught.
And by what I have seen any of the ones who say they have apostles and prophets get led down a road of destrution.
Joseph Smith apostle and prophet I think
Herbert W Armstrong, apostle
Anyway my point is most of them sure seem to be way off from where I can good sound biblical teaching.
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Postby lauterbacher on Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:00 am

to be honest with you're self you have to admit that you're interpreting scripture from a Baptist view point. Is this not true?
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Re: APOLOGY TO DAVID L ET AL...

Postby Passion on Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:17 am

Joe4Gzus wrote: I hope I can be a lesson to everyone who reads this thread.



:eek: Wow--and what a lesson it's been! An awesome lesson in humility and love, ala 1 Cor.13:4-7. Thank you, Joe, for being willing to to be used by the Spirit for a timely reminder/lesson!
"But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation. My God will hear me. Do not rejoice over me, O my enemy. Though I fall I will rise; Though I dwell in darkness, the Lord is a light for me."

--Mica 7:7-8


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